WI: Henry VII's Other Children survived?

Basically what it it says on the tin. I'm proposing that, instead of Arthur, Margaret, Henry and Mary surviving to marriageable age, Elizabeth, Edmund and Katherine do instead.

So the family tree looks like this:
Henry VII (1457-1509) m. 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503)
  • Arthur (1486-1488)
  • Margaret (1489-1493)
  • Henry (1491-1497)
  • Elizabeth (b.1492)
  • Mary (1496-1497)
  • Edmund (b.1499)
  • Katherine (b.1503)
Prince Henry dies in the fire at Sheen in 1497, but the others are all childhood illness and the like. I'm aware the children would probably have different names TTL, but for ease of reference, I've stuck to their historical names.

Assuming the same death dates for Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, what happens? Is Henry's rule more unstable because he doesn't have an heir to succeed him until the late 1490s? In fact, does he keep the throne at all, or does one of the uprisings unseat him?

If he does keep his throne, Edmund will be 10 upon his accession. Who's Regent for the next 6-8 years? And who does Edmund marry? Who do his sisters marry? The geopolitical sphere may be very different in 1504, when Elizabeth turns 12, than it was in 1501, when Margaret would have come of age... And that's IF she marries immediately, which is by no means guaranteed.

Any thoughts?
 
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Well, Edmund will marry Eleanor of Austria. He's of suitable age for her, unlike Henry IOTL. Katherine will wed Charles V, while Elizabeth either weds a surviving Charles Orlando or Francis I.
 
Well, Edmund will marry Eleanor of Austria. He's of suitable age for her, unlike Henry IOTL. Katherine will wed Charles V, while Elizabeth either weds a surviving Charles Orlando or Francis I.
If Francis is king then he marries Claude of Brittany. No way are they letting Brittany go. Charles Orlando can work, but Christian II of Kalmar is also a suitable option for Elizabeth. Edmund and Katherine’s matches seem logical
 
If Francis is king then he marries Claude of Brittany. No way are they letting Brittany go. Charles Orlando can work, but Christian II of Kalmar is also a suitable option for Elizabeth. Edmund and Katherine’s matches seem logical
Christian II works, as does Antoine, Duke of Lorraine. Or, hell, James IV. He was willing to wait for Margaret IOTL after all.
 
Well, Edmund will marry Eleanor of Austria. He's of suitable age for her, unlike Henry IOTL. Katherine will wed Charles V, while Elizabeth either weds a surviving Charles Orlando or Francis I.
Christian II works, as does Antoine, Duke of Lorraine. Or, hell, James IV. He was willing to wait for Margaret IOTL after all.
If Francis is king then he marries Claude of Brittany. No way are they letting Brittany go. Charles Orlando can work, but Christian II of Kalmar is also a suitable option for Elizabeth. Edmund and Katherine’s matches seem logical
I was assuming Eleanor for Edmund, myself, actually, assuming the lack of a healthy male heir isn't enough to topple Henry VII. I wasn't sure England would go for a double match, though, and I'd think Henry VII would want to highlight his Lancastrian ancestry by reinforcing John of Gaunt's old alliance, so I was wondering about Joao III for Katherine. They're only a year apart in age, after all.

Charles V can marry Isabella of Portugal, Katherine can marry Joao and Edmund can marry Eleanor. A nice triple Anglo-Burgundian-Portuguese alliance.

On the same anti-French line, I think Christian of Denmark for Elizabeth, particularly if it's Edmund's Regency Council that arranges her match and not Henry. Although I agree that Charles Orlando could also work, if he survives.
 
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I was assuming Eleanor for Edmund, myself, actually, assuming the lack of a healthy male heir isn't enough to topple Henry VII. I wasn't sure England would go for a double match, though, and I'd think Henry VII would want to highlight his Lancastrian ancestry by reinforcing John of Gaunt's old alliance, so I was wondering about Joao II for Katherine. They're only a year apart in age, after all.

Charles V can marry Isabella of Portugal, Katherine can marry Joao and Edmund can marry Eleanor. A nice triple Anglo-Burgundian-Portuguese alliance.

On the same anti-French line, I think Christian of Denmark for Elizabeth, particularly if it's Edmund's Regency Council that arranges her match and not Henry. Although I agree that Charles Orlando could also work, if he survives.
Joao II? He was born in 1455...I'm going to assume you mean Joao III? Yes, Katherine as queen of Portugal could work nicely too. Although it would be rather interesting if Elizabeth wed Charles Orlando, creating a LOT of conflict between the in-laws...Christian of Denmark can work though, definitely.
 
Joao II? He was born in 1455...I'm going to assume you mean Joao III? Yes, Katherine as queen of Portugal could work nicely too. Although it would be rather interesting if Elizabeth wed Charles Orlando, creating a LOT of conflict between the in-laws...Christian of Denmark can work though, definitely.
I did mean Joao III, yes... Fixed.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I was assuming Eleanor for Edmund, myself, actually, assuming the lack of a healthy male heir isn't enough to topple Henry VII. I wasn't sure England would go for a double match, though, and I'd think Henry VII would want to highlight his Lancastrian ancestry by reinforcing John of Gaunt's old alliance, so I was wondering about Joao III for Katherine. They're only a year apart in age, after all.

Charles V can marry Isabella of Portugal, Katherine can marry Joao and Edmund can marry Eleanor. A nice triple Anglo-Burgundian-Portuguese alliance.

On the same anti-French line, I think Christian of Denmark for Elizabeth, particularly if it's Edmund's Regency Council that arranges her match and not Henry. Although I agree that Charles Orlando could also work, if he survives.
I think this would work, a question regarding Scotland though, with Margaret and Mary both dying young, does the Treaty of Perpetual Peace with Scotland still include a marriage clause, or does Henry hope that James just stops supporting pretenders?
 
I think this would work, a question regarding Scotland though, with Margaret and Mary both dying young, does the Treaty of Perpetual Peace with Scotland still include a marriage clause, or does Henry hope that James just stops supporting pretenders?
Well, I suppose the marriage clause doesn't work so well since Henry's daughters are far too young. So, Henry will need to come up with other methods
 
I think this would work, a question regarding Scotland though, with Margaret and Mary both dying young, does the Treaty of Perpetual Peace with Scotland still include a marriage clause, or does Henry hope that James just stops supporting pretenders?
Would James be willing to wait for Elizabeth? I could see Henry wanting the match, but would James?
 
Henry VII (1457-1509) m. 1486 Elizabeth of York (1466-1503)
  • Arthur (1486-1488)
  • Margaret (1489-1493)
  • Henry (1491-1497)
  • Elizabeth (b.1492) betrothered to Charles Orlando, Dauphin of France (1492–1495) m. 1505, James IV of Scotland (1473–1513)
  • Roughly two year gap (1493-95)
  • Mary (1496-1497)
  • Another roughly two year gap (1496-99)
  • Edmund (b.1499) m.
  • Yet another ify 2 year gap (1499-1503)
  • Katherine (b.1503) m. 1520, Henry II of Navarre (1503–1555)
Assuming the same death dates for Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, what happens? Is Henry's rule more unstable because he doesn't have an heir to succeed him until the late 1490s? In fact, does he keep the throne at all, or does one of the uprisings unseat him?
I believe that like in OTL, when Arthur dies, Henry will work harder to produce another spare straight away, so maybe the three gaps as stated above get filled.
There are always potential nobilities with links to royalty who will see the young king as an easy attack.
OTL Henry VIII was old enough and strong enough to hold off the usurpers but Edmund would be too young, I believe that Henry VII would need to find Edmund a bride from a strong English family, as a foreign monarch won’t like the idea of their daughter being married to a disposed king.
Plus a strong English family would have more of a reason to fight so that their daughter stays on the throne.
If he does keep his throne, Edmund will be 10 upon his accession. Who's Regent for the next 6-8 years?
The regency will be made up of the father-in-law and many loyal to Henry VII.
 
I believe that like in OTL, when Arthur dies, Henry will work harder to produce another spare straight away, so maybe the three gaps as stated above get filled.
I agree. But that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be successful, particuarly not in 1499-1503, when Elizabeth is in her early-mid thirties and her fertility is dropping anyway.

Or perhaps Henry marries again post-1503. Maybe to Giovanna of Naples, as @Awkwardvulture has had happen in their TL.

I believe that Henry VII would need to find Edmund a bride from a strong English family, as a foreign monarch won’t like the idea of their daughter being married to a disposed king.
But who? The Howards haven't got anyone to offer until Mary, unless one of Thomas Howard's daughters by Anne of York survives childhood, and Mary and Katherine are too young for Edmund. The Staffords are plausible, but would Henry want to encourage their rights to the throne?

I suppose Edmund's cousin Lady Margaret Courtenay is a possiblity. She's got Yorkist blood and is about his age. But I rather think Henry would want a foreign bride for his son. The Regency Council may change tack post 1509, of course.
I think he might be, the man was in a pretty strong position compared to his fsrher, so he may be willing to wait.
Or would there be an English proxy available? Maybe Catherine of York, if she doesn't marry William Courtenay?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I agree. But that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be successful, particuarly not in 1499-1503, when Elizabeth is in her early-mid thirties and her fertility is dropping anyway.

Or perhaps Henry marries again post-1503. Maybe to Giovanna of Naples, as @Awkwardvulture has had happen in their TL.


But who? The Howards haven't got anyone to offer until Mary, unless one of Thomas Howard's daughters by Anne of York survives childhood, and Mary and Katherine are too young for Edmund. The Staffords are plausible, but would Henry want to encourage their rights to the throne?

I suppose Edmund's cousin Lady Margaret Courtenay is a possiblity. She's got Yorkist blood and is about his age. But I rather think Henry would want a foreign bride for his son. The Regency Council may change tack post 1509, of course.

Or would there be an English proxy available? Maybe Catherine of York, if she doesn't marry William Courtenay?
Catherine would be a good bet with Henry can be convinced to let her wed
 
There'll be a few very nervous years in the 1490s between Henry the Younger's death and Edmund's birth. Said years also happen to coincide with the career of one Perkin Warbeck. Not saying we'll get a King Perkin, but if the Tudor regime is looking flimsier...

Edmund's period of regency could also provide an opening for the de la Poles, assuming they've still scurried off to the continent as OTL. Though their level of support obviously depends on the altered diplomatic (by virtue of marriages) situation.

Without a son(s) in the cradle, would Henry be more reluctant to marry off the younger Yorkist princesses for fear of potential domestic claimants, or give them different husbands?

If the precariousness of the Tudor dynasty leads Buckingham to think too openly about the succession, he might also find his way to an earlier grave.
 
Hmm I think the matches you proposed for Henry's children here make sense, and it's an excellent premise. I can definitely see Henry remarrying here, quite possibly to Giovanna of Naples as a good deal of the drama caused regarding Catherine's marriage to Arthur has been avoided, and he needs a mother to his young children...
 
Hmm I think the matches you proposed for Henry's children here make sense, and it's an excellent premise. I can definitely see Henry remarrying here, quite possibly to Giovanna of Naples as a good deal of the drama caused regarding Catherine's marriage to Arthur has been avoided, and he needs a mother to his young children...
That would be interesting! Especially if they have children
 
Catherine would be a good bet with Henry can be convinced to let her wed
If. That's the big question, isn't it?
There'll be a few very nervous years in the 1490s between Henry the Younger's death and Edmund's birth. Said years also happen to coincide with the career of one Perkin Warbeck. Not saying we'll get a King Perkin, but if the Tudor regime is looking flimsier...

Edmund's period of regency could also provide an opening for the de la Poles, assuming they've still scurried off to the continent as OTL. Though their level of support obviously depends on the altered diplomatic (by virtue of marriages) situation.

Without a son(s) in the cradle, would Henry be more reluctant to marry off the younger Yorkist princesses for fear of potential domestic claimants, or give them different husbands?

If the precariousness of the Tudor dynasty leads Buckingham to think too openly about the succession, he might also find his way to an earlier grave.
Ooh. Perkin. I had forgotten about Perkin. Well, that makes things very interesting doesn't it?

I wonder whether, with there being no Prince of Wales down South, James might give him more support, maybe even invade England on his behalf (sadly, Lady Catherine Stewart, James's daughter, is far too young for Perkin, or I'd have tried to wed the two of them. Not to mention Perkin and Lady Catherine Gordon seem to have been a love match...)

But with Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy supporting Perkin, it makes Henry VII's efforts to wed Edmund to Eleanor all the more important. Either way, I could see the De La Poles gaining more support than OTL here, either way. Maybe Edmund doesn't get handed over ITTL and marries a minor foreign Princess or Richard manages to secure Dorothea of Denmark's hand...

Buckingham could well find himself a head shorter earlier than OTL. On the other hand, Henry might decide he needs Buckingham's support, especially if James IV invades in support of Perkin, and promise Edmund to Elizabeth/Katherine Stafford.
Hmm I think the matches you proposed for Henry's children here make sense, and it's an excellent premise. I can definitely see Henry remarrying here, quite possibly to Giovanna of Naples as a good deal of the drama caused regarding Catherine's marriage to Arthur has been avoided, and he needs a mother to his young children...
Okay, yes. And maybe they manage one/two children before Henry's death in 1509?
 
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