WI: Henry VIII doesn't have his jousting accident

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Night Gaul, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Kynan Well-Known Member

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    Mary is only a liability if her relatives don’t recognise the Prince of Wales, which will probably happen pretty soon afternoon husband birth. We know Henry had managed to force Chaupys’ hand to bow to Anne a few months before her arrest, signalling the beginning of further recognition, and once a son is born there’s no reason to keep fighting. She’s a potential threat, but one easily dealt with by depriving her of the opportunities to leave the country. Having his daughter executed to a big step, and the threat of the same will make Henry seem a monster internationally. Again, her personal household will shrink (if and when she’s granted one again), she’ll probably be stuck with Anne’s daughter(s) for the time being and, ultimately, she’ll be stuck away somewhere to keep out of trouble. Henry and Anne are not unintelligent people and they know if Mary is executed, England’s foreign policy is screwed.
     
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  2. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Mary can be married off to a Protestant ally but her retinue must be on guard until she is married off, the Duke of Cleves comes to mind.
     
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  3. Endymion Byronic Hero

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    My understanding is that this would be unnecessary, although I could be wrong. Prior to the Council of Trent, a marriage was considered lawful in the eyes of canon law so long as a couple pledged themselves to wed and consummated the union. The element of consent here is already obvious, given the fact that Henry and Anne were married (albeit bigamously at the time) and living together as man and wife.

    It’s one thing to claim the king’s marriage to Anne is invalid when his first wife is still alive; it’s quite another to make that argument after Catherine’s death. Remember, this is a time when many peasants didn’t even bother to go through with a formal Church blessing and instead just took up with each other as husband and wife. I doubt the issue of *Henry IX’s legitimacy will ever come up, given contemporary attitudes.
     
  4. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Kynan we are talking about Henry VIII (and Mary Tudor): he will not allow any perceived big threat to his heir so either Mary sign the Oath and recognize Anne as legitimate Queen and herself as illegitimate or she will go to the Tower after the birth of her half-brother...
    France do not care at all for Mary Tudor while the Emperor will surely not fight England for the sake of his late, stubborn ad likely a little mad cousin... either Mary submitted or Henry would have a valid reason for sent her to the Tower and he can not be blamed for killing Mary if she forced him to do it. Mary can be a danger for the rule of Henry IX and maybe also Henry VIII also without external support...
     
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  5. Ogrebear Well-Known Member

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    Why would Mary sign something that made her illegitimate rather than something that renounced her or descendants claim to the throne?

    Or was that not a thing then?
     
  6. Fabius Maximus Unus qui nobis cunctando restituit rem

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    Henry was condemned for martyring English Catholics anyway, and the deaths of Thomas Moore and John Fisher in particular caused an outcry in Europe (since both of them were famous scholars). Killing his own daughter would be even more outrageous. As for English public opinion, the Reformation caused several big rebellions IOTL anyway, and popular opinion widely considered Catherine the true Queen and Anne a usurping harlot. If Henry kills his own daughter he's going to turn even more people against him.

    It's also worth pointing out that Henry had his marriage to Anne annulled before her execution, meaning that Elizabeth I was illegitimate under both Catholic and Anglican canon law. If this didn't cause her any problems, I don't see why *Henry IX should find things more difficult.
     
  7. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Killing also his own daughter will demonstrate to everyone who Henry VIII do not take any risk about the succession. Popular outcry will be short lived without an alternative up to put on the throne (plus Henry can very well throw Mary in the Tower for her refuge to sign the Oath and having her executed after dealing with a rebellion in her name (an ATL pilgrimage of Grace will most likely ask to Henry to return to the Catholicism, renounce to his false wedding to Anne Boleyn and the restoration of Mary as heiress... try to guess Henry’s reaction if Mary’s has not already signed the Oath or give any sign to be happy about that...)
     
  8. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Because Henry had declared her illegitimate AND so Mary needed to accept who she had no right to the Crown unlike what she wanted
     
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  9. Ogrebear Well-Known Member

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    Could Henry send Mary to a remote Nunnery for life oath or not?

    Make sure she is well locked in and she need not be a visible prisoner in the Tower.
     
  10. Shiva Dreaming... always dreaming...

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    I will point out that the only reason that Mary signed the Oath was because Eustace Chapuys guaranteed that the Pope would grant her Papal Absolution for it (which the Pope did do), and even after doing it Mary Tudor NEVER forgave herself for it.
     
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  11. isabella Well-Known Member

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    No, as nunneries were abolished, plus Mary is undeniably guilty of high treason against her King and father (and Charles V is not exactly in the position to protest for his cousin’s imprisonment)


    Exactly. Reason for which is pretty unlikely anyone will blame Henry for sending her in the Tower specially after the ATL Pilgrimage of Grace...