WI: Henry VIII Dies in 1538?

[Kellan Sullivan]

After the birth of the UNQUESTIONABLY LEGITIMATE Edward VI and Hal's BELOVED Jane Seymour? Edward's GODMOTHER is noneother than his eldest half-sister, Mary.

Who heads the government? The Seymours haven't had a decade to build themselves on Jane's memory, but the Pilgrimage of Grace's objections to Cromwell are still in living memory. And besides, if the Seymours, Brandon and Wolsey were regarded as jumped up nothings, the idea of a government being headed by the son of a Putney blacksmith probably means Cromwell will be a fool to try and pull an Edward Seymour-John Dudley here.

@VVD0D95 @isabella @desmirelle @Alex Zetsu

 

[VVD0D95]

After the birth of the UNQUESTIONABLY LEGITIMATE Edward VI and Hal's BELOVED Jane Seymour? Edward's GODMOTHER is noneother than his eldest half-sister, Mary.

Who heads the government? The Seymours haven't had a decade to build themselves on Jane's memory, but the Pilgrimage of Grace's objections to Cromwell are still in living memory. And besides, if the Seymours, Brandon and Wolsey were regarded as jumped up nothings, the idea of a government being headed by the son of a Putney blacksmith probably means Cromwell will be a fool to try and pull an Edward Seymour-John Dudley here.

@VVD0D95 @isabella @desmirelle @Alex Zetsu

Hmm, could the Duke of Norfolk as the premier peer of the realm try and take charge? Norfolk alongside the Seymours and maybe Brandon as a powersharing agreement until the lad is of age?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hmm, could the Duke of Norfolk as the premier peer of the realm try and take charge? Norfolk alongside the Seymours and maybe Brandon as a powersharing agreement until the lad is of age?

Norfolk and Brandon hated one another. Not to mention Gardiner and Southampton are also in the mix. The Poles have yet to meet their unfortunate demise. Reggie Pole is off in Toledo in talks with the Emperor and Karl V and François I are both (technically) sworn to "depose" Henry.

 

[VVD0D95]

Norfolk and Brandon hated one another. Not to mention Gardiner and Southampton are also in the mix. The Poles have yet to meet their unfortunate demise. Reggie Pole is off in Toledo in talks with the Emperor and Karl V and François I are both (technically) sworn to "depose" Henry.

Hmm, then I’m at a loss, Seymour as uncle to the king would demand to be on the council by right of blood

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hmm, then I’m at a loss, Seymour as uncle to the king would demand to be on the council by right of blood

I wonder if Karl V would drop his quasi-alliance with François to back Mary being named "guardian" of Edward's person, if he can't get her named as regent. That way at least none of the regency council members can claim a sort of superiority by having custody of the king.

PS: I'm not sure how likely it is, just that they objected to Edward Seymour having BOTH presidency of the council AND custody. And in threads discussing Mary leaving a minor heir, Elizabeth's name normally gets thrown out for person of guardian even if Gardiner-Norfolk would likely head the council

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I think Brandon and Seymour would together be able to control the council.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I wonder if Karl V would drop his quasi-alliance with François to back Mary being named "guardian" of Edward's person, if he can't get her named as regent. T

Oh that solves the problem

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Oh that solves the problem

Mary being named as regent?

 

[VVD0D95]

I wonder if Karl V would drop his quasi-alliance with François to back Mary being named "guardian" of Edward's person, if he can't get her named as regent. That way at least none of the regency council members can claim a sort of superiority by having custody of the king.

PS: I'm not sure how likely it is, just that they objected to Edward Seymour having BOTH presidency of the council AND custody. And in threads discussing Mary leaving a minor heir, Elizabeth's name normally gets thrown out for person of guardian even if Gardiner-Norfolk would likely head the council

I could definitely see Karl dropping the alliance with Francois with Henry out of the way, and maybe promising trade etc with England if Mary's named Custodian of the King

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Mary being named as regent?

Yeah. As you mentioned that means none of the council gets one up over the others by having custody of the king.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Yeah. As you mentioned that means none of the council gets one up over the others by having custody of the king.

The problem with this is that the last time a woman in England was regent for an underage king was in 1509 when Margaret Beaufort was in charge between Henry VII's death in April and Henry VIII's eighteenth birthday in June. Given that Maggie died the day AFTER Henry's 18th and she was a doughty survivor of five reigns and three regimes aged 66yo, I'm not sure anyone expected her to do much besides arrange Henry VII's funeral and Henry VIII's coronation.

The last time BEFORE that a woman had been regent was Isabelle de France for Edward III, and I doubt Isabelle's most DEDICATED apologist can call THAT a success.

Mary's 22yo, with zero political experience (like Isabelle, Margaret or even her own mother). As a mother figure for Edward, sure. As ACTUAL regent, I'm not sure she'd be able to take a stand against hard-nosed politicians like Norfolk or even Cromwell.

 

[isabella]

The problem with this is that the last time a woman in England was regent for an underage king was in 1509 when Margaret Beaufort was in charge between Henry VII's death in April and Henry VIII's eighteenth birthday in June. Given that Maggie died the day AFTER Henry's 18th and she was a doughty survivor of five reigns and three regimes aged 66yo, I'm not sure anyone expected her to do much besides arrange Henry VII's funeral and Henry VIII's coronation.

The last time BEFORE that a woman had been regent was Isabelle de France for Edward III, and I doubt Isabelle's most DEDICATED apologist can call THAT a success.

Mary's 22yo, with zero political experience (like Isabelle, Margaret or even her own mother). As a mother figure for Edward, sure. As ACTUAL regent, I'm not sure she'd be able to take a stand against hard-nosed politicians like Norfolk or even Cromwell.

Pretty likely Mary will take custody of the King (and of Elizabeth) while Edward Seymour will be the head of his nephew’s council of regency

 

[HortenseMancini]

Pretty likely Mary will take custody of the King (and of Elizabeth) while Edward Seymour will be the head of his nephew’s council of regency

I have to agree. It will be interesting to see how religion plays out ITTL, because I'm sure Mary isn't going to let her little half siblings be polluted by what she sees as heresy. And while they may not like each other, I can see both Norfolk and Suffolk demanding places on the regency council.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

OK, I'm still going with Brandon and Seymour beat Cromwellinthissituation

 

[HortenseMancini]

OK, I'm still going with Brandon and Seymour beat Cromwellinthissituation

For sure...Cromwell was a commoner who happened to briefly catch the attention of the late king and proved unpopular with the people, Brandon and Seymour at least have money/connections.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Mary's 22yo, with zero political experience (like Isabelle, Margaret or even her own mother). As a mother figure for Edward, sure. As ACTUAL regent, I'm not sure she'd be able to take a stand against hard-nosed politicians like Norfolk or even Cromwell.

Also there would presumably be fears that she might decide to pull a Richard III and have her younger brother disappeared.

I have to agree. It will be interesting to see how religion plays out ITTL, because I'm sure Mary isn't going to let her little half siblings be polluted by what she sees as heresy. And while they may not like each other, I can see both Norfolk and Suffolk demanding places on the regency council.

I would expect England to end up reconciling with the Catholic Church, since Protestantism hasn't bedded-in yet and Edward is unquestionably legitimate from a Catholic perspective, meaning that there's no dynastic reason militating against reunion. In which case, Henry's reformation would probably be seen as a weird anomaly, like Mary's counter-reformation was IOTL.

 

[isabella]

I am wondering if maybe Edward Seymour (and the rest of the council of regency) do not decide to resolve once for all the question with Mary marrying her to her cousin James V of Scotland: James would be glad to marry his cousin, again heiress presumptive of England AND Mary wanted be married and James is a King and their match would secure England’s border during the long minority of Edward VII (so she has very little argument against it)

 

[VVD0D95]

I am wondering if maybe Edward Seymour (and the rest of the council of regency) do not decide to resolve once for all the question with Mary marrying her to her cousin James V of Scotland: James would be glad to marry his cousin, again heiress presumptive of England AND Mary wanted be married and James is a King and their match would secure England’s border during the long minority of Edward VII (so she has very little argument against it)

This is the sensible option for all involved I think

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Also there would presumably be fears that she might decide to pull a Richard III and have her younger brother disappeared.

I don't think that is in the cards for her given her personality if she is given charge of Edward shortly after birth

 

[Fabius Maximus]

I don't think that is in the cards for her given her personality if she is given charge of Edward shortly after birth

I agree it's not the sort of thing she'd actually do, but that wouldn't necessarily stop people from worrying. After all, did anybody think of Richard III as a potential parricide before the Princes in the Tower affair?