WI: Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn Had a (Illegitimate) Son

In the 1930s this guy started claiming that he was the rightful king of England because he descended in the male-line from everyone's favorite male Tudor and his head-losing wife (well, one of them). However, the descent was tainted by the fact the son was a bastard, purportedly born before the marriage of Henry and Anne.

Maybe there are plans for a wedding, but the baby is born prematurely, and it is Henry's longed for son, but much like Fitzroy, he's a born and bred bastard. Then after the wedding, Elizabeth is born, and the rest of Anne's obstetrical history takes its OTL course.

Thoughts?
 
In the 1930s this guy started claiming that he was the rightful king of England because he descended in the male-line from everyone's favorite male Tudor and his head-losing wife (well, one of them). However, the descent was tainted by the fact the son was a bastard, purportedly born before the marriage of Henry and Anne.

Maybe there are plans for a wedding, but the baby is born prematurely, and it is Henry's longed for son, but much like Fitzroy, he's a born and bred bastard. Then after the wedding, Elizabeth is born, and the rest of Anne's obstetrical history takes its OTL course.

Thoughts?

In circumstances where Henry and Anne still eventually got married, a legal way would be found to legitimize the son.

Its quite common in continental jurisdictions for a child born before marriage to be legitimized by their parents subsequent marriage.
 
Anne Boleyn made cristal clear to Henry VIII that she was not to be neither his lover nor the mother of a bastard, so to change her set of mind, you need something HUGE changing that.
 
Anne Boleyn made cristal clear to Henry VIII that she was not to be neither his lover nor the mother of a bastard, so to change her set of mind, you need something HUGE changing that.

Elizabeth I was conceived before Henry and Anne were married.

I accept and agree that Anne played the long game but towards the end, for whatever reason, she gave in and she and Henry consummated their relationship, it was her pregnancy which led to the sense of urgency for them to marry.

It may have been a pragmatic step by Anne, she may have worried that she risked over playing her hand (there were rumours that Wolsey was trying to arrange a French marriage behind the scenes), a well timed pregnancy would put things back on track.
 
Yup it is likely Anne really only "gave in" in late 1532 and Elizabeth was born around eight and a half months or so after their "official" wedding in the January of 1533.

If they had begun a sexual relationship earlier and Anne had not conceived then it is debatable whether Henry's passion would not have faded over a period of five or six years - and politically an alternative new wife would have helped him both domestically and internationally.
Given in their short marriage Anne conceived three times i think it is likely she would have done so earlier if their relationship had got to that point.

If they had and a male child had been born - then you have options for legitimization but like Elizabeth in OTL he would have still been regarded as illegitimate in Catholic eyes (and Catholic legitimization were usually impossible where adultery by the parents were involved - adding in Henry's previous relationship with Anne's sister Mary was also problematic)
 
In the 1930s this guy started claiming that he was the rightful king of England because he descended in the male-line from everyone's favorite male Tudor and his head-losing wife (well, one of them).

Thoughts?

His story is fascinating. Some highlights:

In 1931, Hall attempted — in an "open letter", in the form of a pamphlet, to King George V, whom he addressed as "George Frederick Ernest Albert Windsor (alias Guelph)" — to claim the English throne.[8] He also made many speeches, in Birmingham and elsewhere, in which he set out his claim and challenged the King to a duel, with the loser to be beheaded. He also set forth an agenda to deal with the national debt, for the dissolution of the Government of the United Kingdom,[4] and the abolition of income tax.[8] One of his more popular pledges was to increase the alcoholic strength of beer.
 
Yup it is likely Anne really only "gave in" in late 1532 and Elizabeth was born around eight and a half months or so after their "official" wedding in the January of 1533.

If they had begun a sexual relationship earlier and Anne had not conceived then it is debatable whether Henry's passion would not have faded over a period of five or six years - and politically an alternative new wife would have helped him both domestically and internationally.
Given in their short marriage Anne conceived three times i think it is likely she would have done so earlier if their relationship had got to that point.

If they had and a male child had been born - then you have options for legitimization but like Elizabeth in OTL he would have still been regarded as illegitimate in Catholic eyes (and Catholic legitimization were usually impossible where adultery by the parents were involved - adding in Henry's previous relationship with Anne's sister Mary was also problematic)

Not really. The view of the Catholic Church was largely irrelevant by this stage to Henry VIII and a healthy male heir would have simply emboldened him further to push on.

The same could equally apply to Edward VI, in the eyes of Roman Catholics, Henry was not legally married to Jane Seymour in a Catholic ceremony, therefore he was as illegitimate as Elizabeth I in the eyes of Roman Catholics.

Nonetheless Edward was Henry's undisputed heir, even from Mary.

A healthy male child born to Henry and Anne would have brought the whole
episode to a much quicker resolution, Catherine would become an greater irrelevance and most likely lose the support of her nephew, who was a pragmatist and would have realised his aunt and cousin's position was list. His primary focus would probably become saving Mary and getting her out of England and making a decent foreign marriage.
 
His story is fascinating. Some highlights:

Its amazing how these wackadoodle's get so much attention just by invoking the Royal Family.

Reminds me of the story a few years ago when some random claimed he was Princess Margaret's illegitimate son, who claimed he was born to her during a Commonwealth tour! The amount of media attention he garnered was remarkable, despite his story being utterly absurd.
 
Elizabeth I was conceived before Henry and Anne were married.

I accept and agree that Anne played the long game but towards the end, for whatever reason, she gave in and she and Henry consummated their relationship, it was her pregnancy which led to the sense of urgency for them to marry.

It may have been a pragmatic step by Anne, she may have worried that she risked over playing her hand (there were rumours that Wolsey was trying to arrange a French marriage behind the scenes), a well timed pregnancy would put things back on track.

Just because Anne saw that she had won the game by the winter of 1532. Perhaps it was a way to force Henry's hand. Bearing in mind that Henry had been wooing Anne since 1526, that she finally overcome her sturbborness (or principles) just at so very late the game is quite telling.

The best chance for a male son conceived before marriage is turning Elizabeth into a boy, nothing else.
 
I was thinking that Henry would probably move heaven and earth to have this child named as his heir, however, there's just a teensy problem...

Because the child is technically a bastard (yes, mom and dad got married, but (speaking from the PoV of someone who's godfather to two kids born out of wedlock and when their mom and dad finally got hitched last year, pops had to shell out a fair amount of money and fill out a raft of paperwork to assert that the kids were his, and that he had read and agreed to the terms and conditions, just to legitimate* them) that's not necessarily gonna be enough), his dad's gonna have to push through a bill in parliament to be able to name the kid his successor. (Parliament considered naming Fitzroy heir between Anne's hook-up with the headsman from Calais and Fitzroy's death).

Is the rest of England/Europe gonna accept this? True, they accepted Elizabeth (mostly because the other option (Mary of Scots) was unacceptable to Spain, and France (to whom Mary was) had too many internal issues to worry about causing too much of a hassle) OTL, but here, if Anne still has her sword accident, with no other boys, and Henry still goes OTL's route and marries Jane Seymour, who pops out Sickly Eddie, when Henry dies who succeeds?

*I always get confused between legitimization and naturalization
 
I was thinking that Henry would probably move heaven and earth to have this child named as his heir, however, there's just a teensy problem...

Because the child is technically a bastard (yes, mom and dad got married, but (speaking from the PoV of someone who's godfather to two kids born out of wedlock and when their mom and dad finally got hitched last year, pops had to shell out a fair amount of money and fill out a raft of paperwork to assert that the kids were his, and that he had read and agreed to the terms and conditions, just to legitimate* them) that's not necessarily gonna be enough), his dad's gonna have to push through a bill in parliament to be able to name the kid his successor. (Parliament considered naming Fitzroy heir between Anne's hook-up with the headsman from Calais and Fitzroy's death).

Is the rest of England/Europe gonna accept this? True, they accepted Elizabeth (mostly because the other option (Mary of Scots) was unacceptable to Spain, and France (to whom Mary was) had too many internal issues to worry about causing too much of a hassle) OTL, but here, if Anne still has her sword accident, with no other boys, and Henry still goes OTL's route and marries Jane Seymour, who pops out Sickly Eddie, when Henry dies who succeeds?

*I always get confused between legitimization and naturalization
If Henry's still sane,wouldn't he try to marry Mary abroad ASAP to get her out of the way?
 
I was thinking that Henry would probably move heaven and earth to have this child named as his heir, however, there's just a teensy problem...

Because the child is technically a bastard (yes, mom and dad got married, but (speaking from the PoV of someone who's godfather to two kids born out of wedlock and when their mom and dad finally got hitched last year, pops had to shell out a fair amount of money and fill out a raft of paperwork to assert that the kids were his, and that he had read and agreed to the terms and conditions, just to legitimate* them) that's not necessarily gonna be enough), his dad's gonna have to push through a bill in parliament to be able to name the kid his successor. (Parliament considered naming Fitzroy heir between Anne's hook-up with the headsman from Calais and Fitzroy's death).

Is the rest of England/Europe gonna accept this? True, they accepted Elizabeth (mostly because the other option (Mary of Scots) was unacceptable to Spain, and France (to whom Mary was) had too many internal issues to worry about causing too much of a hassle) OTL, but here, if Anne still has her sword accident, with no other boys, and Henry still goes OTL's route and marries Jane Seymour, who pops out Sickly Eddie, when Henry dies who succeeds?

*I always get confused between legitimization and naturalization

I honestly find it very hard to believe Henry VIII would go to the trouble of legitimizing his illegitimate child and then risk it all by executing the mother. If Anne gives Henry the son he wants, especially in such iffy circumstances, then she is probably set for life. That doesn't mean Henry wouldn't tire of her but he wouldn't feel the need to get rid of her completely.

teg
 
The Catholic Church was not that irrelevant at that point internationally and the vast majority of Henry's subjects were still traditional Catholics.
His subjects and many others abroad would of course accept the boy as his heir because the alternative (a woman on the throne) was unacceptable to them but the stigma would remain - as it did in our timeline for both Elizabeth and Mary... and it would remain an acceptable stick with which to attack the future King Edward VI or Henry IX by anyone with an axe to grind.

Legitimization was of course not impossible and legally an act of parliament would have done it and would certainly have been done if Anne had delivered a boy - to Protestant eyes Henry and Anne's subsequent marriage and their view that the King's first marriage had been invalid would have been enough.
For Catholics it meant two things accepting the first marriage was invalid (and the grounds Henry used were extremely weak) and that therefore Anne and Henry's relationship followed by marriage was valid and the child was not conceived in an adulterous relationship.

Catherine's point of view was to hang on to the bitter end and she would have continued to do so I suspect - it wasn't in her to simply stand aside. Many of her supporters would have continued to back her - though many of the commons might have been more tolerant of Queen Anne if she had delivered a Prince of Wales whether before or after the wedding.


Not really. The view of the Catholic Church was largely irrelevant by this stage to Henry VIII and a healthy male heir would have simply emboldened him further to push on.

The same could equally apply to Edward VI, in the eyes of Roman Catholics, Henry was not legally married to Jane Seymour in a Catholic ceremony, therefore he was as illegitimate as Elizabeth I in the eyes of Roman Catholics.

Nonetheless Edward was Henry's undisputed heir, even from Mary.

A healthy male child born to Henry and Anne would have brought the whole
episode to a much quicker resolution, Catherine would become an greater irrelevance and most likely lose the support of her nephew, who was a pragmatist and would have realised his aunt and cousin's position was list. His primary focus would probably become saving Mary and getting her out of England and making a decent foreign marriage.
 

aenigma

Banned
Just because Anne saw that she had won the game by the winter of 1532. Perhaps it was a way to force Henry's hand. Bearing in mind that Henry had been wooing Anne since 1526, that she finally overcome her sturbborness (or principles) just at so very late the game is quite telling.

The best chance for a male son conceived before marriage is turning Elizabeth into a boy, nothing else.

or elisabeth could have had a twinbrother ;)
 
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