Isn't Mann just a ladyship at most? I forgot.
A rebellion is gonna happen whichever path we take, things won't quiet down till atleast 1500 IMHO
WI: Henry VII dies of the Sweating Sickness?
- Thread starter Rex Romae
- Start date
A rebellion is gonna happen whichever path we take, things won't quiet down till atleast 1500 IMHO
Suffolk's greatest political accomplishment was convincing Henry VI, Edward IV, Richard III, and Henry VII to forget he even existed. The man goes through the War of the Roses unscathed.
Northumberland is a weird wildcard of a traditionally Lancasterian family, grew up under a Yorkist government and seemingly personally loyal to Edward IV, fights for Richard III but extremely ineffectively (but more loyal than the guys who didn't even show up), then fights for Henry VII against Lincoln equally ineffectively.
The only constant is you can rely on Northumberland to get lost easily.
Last edited:
Thomas Stanley was the last one to use the title King of Mann, his grandson and heir preferred Lord, perhaps helped by being 2nd Earl of Derby. The earldom being granted to Stanley shortly into Henry's reign.
Yep. I've raised the possibility that the Perkin Warbeck one comes sooner and could be successful.
The more I think about it, the more I see this as the only way out.
Despite what people have said upthread, there are no "Richardians" or "Edwardians" any more. Richard is dead and his faction has been broken. The Yorkist split is between die-hards like Lovell who will go on fighting as long as there's breath in them, trimmers like Northumberland who can be pressed into going quietly and the Woodville/Grey faction who are still too powerful to overlook. Henry Tudor bought off the Woodvilles by promising to marry Elizabeth; the new regime will have to offer something similar or face a re-united Yorkist faction.
Crown Margaret Beaufort? She's a woman, she has no heirs (so they're only postponing the problem) and she has nothing to offer the Woodvilles besides "we'll leave you the Duchy of York and not kill you". Plus, if Stanley doesn't want to see Jasper Tudor a bedchamber King, I imagine Jasper feels the same way about Stanley.
Crown Elizabeth (and presumably marry her to Jasper) - well one problem I hadn't thought of is that even if Jasper lives until his son is of age, when he dies the boy doesn't take over - Elizabeth does. She's still Queen, a widow of 30-odd, free to remarry to support her own position, pack the Council with her friends and relatives and repay old unkindnesses. And the odds are she will come to power while her son is still a minor and can raise him to be a good Yorkist.
The only way to neutralise Elizabeth while keeping up the bargain with the Woodvilles is to make her Queen consort - that way the Woodvilles see their interests protected and will eventually have a grandchild on the throne, but will never hold the supreme power. That needs a Lancastrian King to marry her to - young Stafford is a poor option, but what better one do they have? The 8-ish years before he can consummate his marriage and start making heirs are going to be long ones. Lovell, at least, is almost certain to try something. Elizabeth will be the hottest of hot properties, able to give instant legitimacy to whichever adventurer can get hold of her. And which of the Lancastrian leaders trusts the other to be Regent and Guardian of the young Edward VI? (Anyone remember what happened to the last boy-King Edward?)
Is there any chance of Elizabeth herself being granted guardianship of young Stafford? She's technically an adult and at this point in time there are plenty of 19 year old women raising children. Though I presume not many of them are also betrothed to said children. And who is regent until Edward VI comes of age?
Last edited:
There are. Both factions still exist.
I think one on the northern cities(York IIRC) went into mourning post-Bosworth,and, at this point of time, even a peasant uprising has a good chance at succeeding because:
A) The mercenaries have been dismissed
B) The southern lords won't give a sh**
C) Most of the northern lords are Ricardian/Yorkist,atleast nominally, so they can cause massive upheaval if they so choose.
This will allow us to kill off semi randomly:
A) EoY
B) Strafford(OK, he's a kid in 1485, but ~1500 he will be in his mid 20s, so that can be taken into account.)
C) Jasper Tudor (Obvious Target)
D) Elizabeth Woodville (If it's Ricardian)
Possible(Probable!) rebellions:
A) Perkin Warbeck
B) Lambert Simnel(maybe even the real one can do the same)
C) John De La Pole(He can rebel on his own, he's able enough)
D) Richard of Eastwell(If he can get support)
E) John of Gloucester (same as his maybe half-brother)
Queen Regnant Margaret ain't gonna happen, for the same reasons you have stated.
What's stopping the Edwardians from leaving Tudor? They'd rather have one of their own self/son married to her.
Jasper won't live long enough to leave legitimate issue, he didn't even have legitimate issue IOTL, who's to say he'll have some ITTL.
The bargain can be kept by making her consort, but post-Tudor, the Edwardians/Woodvilles are in a stronger position than the Lancastrians, who's to they'll keep their part of the bargain?