WI: Henry VII dies of the Sweating Sickness?

Pole was the Ricardian heir, getting him married to EoY would have been better fot the Yorkists (and yes, I'm a Yorkist, so I ain't gonna be doing the Lancastrians any favors)
Perhaps, but a significant factor in Richard's defeat was from Yorkists who hated his guts for overthrowing and imprisoning the Princes in the Tower, and they would despise anyone associated with Richard
 
I also am a Yorkist and a pretty strong one but that do not mean who I am so against Lancastrians. Plus Richard NEVER expl named anyone as heir and with a Yorkist Queen already on the throne and with the crown firmly settled on her as her birthright, most of the Yorkist supporters will be satisfied, so a Lancastrian husband would give more peace. And as Pole was already married to a cousin of EoY and was her first cousin marrying them would be quite complicated, plus Richard’s side HAD LOST the last war so the winning side was composed by Edwardian Yorkists and Lancastrians so Jasper as husband of Queen Elizabeth of York make more sense than any other option available
The Lancastrian cause is gonna be shattered for a while after the death of H7. Jasper takes up the reins, causes some Lancastrians to leave in favour of finding an actual claimant. All Edwardians leave in favour of EoY
Pole was de facto heir to Richard, and was considered as such.
Being cousins didn't stop people from marrying OTL, what's stopping Pole and EoY?


This is the likeliest scenario IMHO
 
Perhaps, but a significant factor in Richard's defeat was from Yorkists who hated his guts for overthrowing and imprisoning the Princes in the Tower, and they would despise anyone associated with Richard
Which is weird since he was invited to take the throne IIRC.
And the murder of Ed5 and his brother was attributed to him post mortem, there isn't enough proof to say who did it, and Ric III didn't have anything to gain by killing them....
 
The Lancastrian cause is gonna be shattered for a while after the death of H7. Jasper takes up the reins, causes some Lancastrians to leave in favour of finding an actual claimant. All Edwardians leave in favour of EoY
Pole was de facto heir to Richard, and was considered as such.
Being cousins didn't stop people from marrying OTL, what's stopping Pole and EoY?


This is the likeliest scenario IMHO
Which is weird since he was invited to take the throne IIRC.
And the murder of Ed5 and his brother was attributed to him post mortem, there isn't enough proof to say who did it, and Ric III didn't have anything to gain by killing them....
Most of the cases where you have cousins repeatedly marrying each other or marrying their dead spouses sibling come from cases where they actually had money and power, it's not for nothing that it was the Habsburgs who could afford to do this through their control of Spain, the low countries and the Holy Roman Empire, which certainly is more to worry about for the pope than some royal Earl who thinks he should be king... Besides, if Japer marries Elizabeth, even if he does has equal power as King Consort, he will still have gained Yorkist support by marrying the person with the best actual claim to the throne. As for the Princes in the tower we'll probably never know who did it, but Richard could have killed them so they could never escape, even if he didn't in any case he didn't do anything to stop or arrest the culprits...
 
Or they could full: "I don't care if he's a bastard, blood of John of Gaunt still flows through his veins" and crown Charles Somerset, he's an adult and proven battle commander.
Legally....iffy?
I wouldn't say he's a proven commander tbh. There's barely anything about how he got his knighthood and he kept his head very down during the Tudor reign.

I think we can all agree that the OP leaves a very very very messy situation to be resolved.
The mostly Lancaster party have won but don't have a legitimate adult male of Lancaster descent and nobility.
The definitely Yorkists have lost but are divided among several claimants that could rule or be married to a ruler.

Lancastrians:
Jasper has the potential power but not the Lancaster lineage. Free to marry the Stafford widow.
Edward Stafford has the lineage and nobility but is a minor, as is his younger brother.
Thomas St Lawrence has the lineage but is likely a minor and isn't nobility
Margaret Beaufort, mother of the winning claimant Henry Tudor. She'd have a shot at being the Lancaster Queen Regnant if allowed. However unlikely to have more children.

Yorkists:
Edward of Warwick, young but with title under attainder, cousin of EoY
Elizabeth of York, eldest daughter of Edward IV, has a shot at being the York Queen Regnant if allowed.
Lincoln, cousin of EoY, male noble of lineage but least senior.

Other:
Thomas Stanley, King of Mann, is married to the mother of Henry Tudor, Margaret Beaufort, but they're unlikely to have children.

All the combinations have flaws. There will probably be need to have a back up line that will needed to marry into the next heir.
 
I'm very happy this thread is still going strong, and I think I will be able to post a little snippet of my own take on events based on everyone's contributions here soon. Just remember to keep things civil and that morals back in the day were very much not the same as in our world, so even if we would find it abhorrent let's calm our horses in that regard.
 
Wrong. Jasper’s son would be nephew of the sainted Henry VI and born from one of the two people most loyal to him until the bitter end and after that (the other being Queen Marguerite) and as Lancastrian blood they will most likely satisfy themselves for now with that who Elizabeth of York inherited by Cecily Neville and the promise of a future Lancastrian blooded princess of Wales...
Empress Matilda’s biggest problem was who many English lords hated (or not trusted) her husband Geoffrey of Anjou and had no intention of being ruled by him, if they had an alternative. If they had liked Matilda‘s husband then she would have zero troubles in claiming and holding her crown
Would you believe that I completely forgot that Jasper Tudor was Henry VI's half-brother? That will certainly help him with the Lancastrians, even though he has no claim to the English throne.

I still think his biggest problem would be his fellow Lancastrian nobles, who are unlikely to want to see him elevated. Apart from Jasper, Oxford and Stanley, who else is in the Tudor/Beaufort circle and powerful enough to get a voice?

The ranks of the high nobility are getting rather thin. There's Northumberland, but he's a confirmed two-timer and I think is still in prison at this point, as are Westmoreland and Norfolk. Lincoln and Lovell are Yorkists, Stafford and Warwick are kids.

One person we haven't mentioned is Margaret Beaufort, who is very much alive in 1485 and would certainly argue that if there are going to be any ruling Queens, her claim is better than Elizabeth's. She could only be a placeholder as there clearly aren't going to be any more Beaufort heirs, but I think Stanley, at least, would be in favour.

(Off topic, I agree that if Empress Matilda hadn't been married to the Normans' hereditary enemy her chances would have been a lot better - as it is though, she's not even a precedent as she never managed to be crowned, much less rule. The closest she came was to be named "Lady of the English" during a period of success during the civil war.)
 
Would you believe that I completely forgot that Jasper Tudor was Henry VI's half-brother? That will certainly help him with the Lancastrians, even though he has no claim to the English throne.

I still think his biggest problem would be his fellow Lancastrian nobles, who are unlikely to want to see him elevated. Apart from Jasper, Oxford and Stanley, who else is in the Tudor/Beaufort circle and powerful enough to get a voice?

The ranks of the high nobility are getting rather thin. There's Northumberland, but he's a confirmed two-timer and I think is still in prison at this point, as are Westmoreland and Norfolk. Lincoln and Lovell are Yorkists, Stafford and Warwick are kids.

One person we haven't mentioned is Margaret Beaufort, who is very much alive in 1485 and would certainly argue that if there are going to be any ruling Queens, her claim is better than Elizabeth's. She could only be a placeholder as there clearly aren't going to be any more Beaufort heirs, but I think Stanley, at least, would be in favour.

(Off topic, I agree that if Empress Matilda hadn't been married to the Normans' hereditary enemy her chances would have been a lot better - as it is though, she's not even a precedent as she never managed to be crowned, much less rule. The closest she came was to be named "Lady of the English" during a period of success during the civil war.)
Margaret Beaufort‘s claim (heiress of a bastard line whose claim was NEVER fully recognised (and in any case for Margaret that would be invalidated by the means of Henry IV takeover, whatever it was) on, and also old and childless) better than the one of Elizabeth? Margaret would NEVER be so crazy or deluded to think that and in any case nobody would take her seriously... Elizabeth whatever you think of their parents marriage is the heiress of a crowned King and Queen and York and not Beaufort was thought as heir presumptive of Henry VI before the birth of Edward of Westminster.
While some Lancastrians (and not) nobles will not be exactly thrilled with the prospective of Jasper as King they will likely agree who Jasper is the best choice for everyone...
 
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Her claim is as weak as her son's.......
Or as strong as her son's. Which, given that her son was King of England before the sweats got him, is not trivial.
Whatever the Yorkists may say, by 1485 the Lancastrians had coalesced around Henry Tudor and the Beaufort claim. Bosworth was fought to put Henry Tudor on the throne, and the reason he was the candidate was his position as "rightful Lancastrian heir" via Margaret Beaufort. The fact that the claim was tenuous and legally disputable matters much less than the fact that he was a descendant of John of Gaunt who wasn't a Yorkist.

And it's the men who won Bosworth who are going to be making the decisions TTL. They can't claim, even by implication , that Henry VII was some random usurper who should never have been King in the first place. The task is to find a plausible heir to our late lamented King Henry, defeater of the wicked Yorkists - or at least the wicked usurper, Crouchback Dick.

Which might be Jasper Tudor - were it not for his Welshness, his relatively low standing among the nobles and his utter lack of Plantagenet blood. He can't be spun as a rightful heir to the crown, so what's left to him is the Yorkist claim (by marriage) and the claim by right of conquest (multiple private armies: "We dispute that"). I just can't see Oxford giving up the Lancastrian cause, even for a brother-in-arms like Jasper Tudor. Or Stanley - who can mobilise a larger army than Tudor - just sitting back and letting a rival pick up his stepson's crown.
 
Or as strong as her son's. Which, given that her son was King of England before the sweats got him, is not trivial.
Whatever the Yorkists may say, by 1485 the Lancastrians had coalesced around Henry Tudor and the Beaufort claim. Bosworth was fought to put Henry Tudor on the throne, and the reason he was the candidate was his position as "rightful Lancastrian heir" via Margaret Beaufort. The fact that the claim was tenuous and legally disputable matters much less than the fact that he was a descendant of John of Gaunt who wasn't a Yorkist.
Which was pretty weak IOTL.
Her son isn't a crowned king ITTL.

The Beaufort claim was, in itself, damaging to itself, since it came through a woman, and the Yorkists had a higher claim in that regard.

What's stopping the Edwardians from leaving Tudor/Lancastrians as soon as he drops dead?

Who's to say that the Ricardians can't spin Tudor's death after killing Ric III as "God's punishment"?

Bosworth was decisive against the Ricardians, not the Yorkists as a whole.
 
Which was pretty weak IOTL.
Her son isn't a crowned king ITTL.

The Beaufort claim was, in itself, damaging to itself, since it came through a woman, and the Yorkists had a higher claim in that regard.

What's stopping the Edwardians from leaving Tudor/Lancastrians as soon as he drops dead?

Who's to say that the Ricardians can't spin Tudor's death after killing Ric III as "God's punishment"?

Bosworth was decisive against the Ricardians, not the Yorkists as a whole.
OK the wars will continue until one person has the power
 
I think what we need to do is plan out the immediate aftermath and see where politics could take us.
What we have is Stanley, and the Lancastrians Margaret Beaufort, Jasper, and perhaps Oxford, in the reigns of power holding the former betrothed (Elizabeth of York) who they've used to bring in the Edwardian Yorkists by declaring her the Yorkist heir. Ricardian Percy is up North contemplating surrender. Edwardian Lincoln has custody of Warwick.
So the first choice for powers that be is: declare Margaret Queen, the nearest Beaufort male (probably the eldest Stafford), or someone else. I don't see Jasper declared monarch over Margaret due to lack of a personal claim, and marrying Elizabeth to be king consort will alienate her and Stanley. Jasper was due to marry the Stafford widow OTL to control them as Henry's then male heirs so I see no reason that doesn't happen here too.
If Margaret is Queen the second choice is who her heirs are. Best choice here is probably the Staffords, young enough to mould and manipulate. That probably works if Edward Stafford is declared king too. If the latter then Margaret is probably Countess of Somerset with a seat on the regency.
Next is what to do with Elizabeth. Delegitimising seems unlikely so best bet is to betroth her to Margaret's closest male heir. If not Queen she's probably declared "Duchess" of York much as her cousin Anne St Leger was, and possibly restored as, Duchess of Exeter. Getting Anne onboard also counters the Lincoln claim as, if sisters are now being ranked, her potential son would have a better one. So her marriage also needs thinking about. What to do about Elizabeth's sisters is another question. Probably marry them abroad.
For the remaining Yorks the first question is whether to stay on board with the regime or resume the war, considering Elizabeth is effectively a hostage. An earlier Warbeck rebellion is probably on the cards. If it wins he's not a pretender!
 
I think what we need to do is plan out the immediate aftermath and see where politics could take us.
What we have is Stanley, and the Lancastrians Margaret Beaufort, Jasper, and perhaps Oxford, in the reigns of power holding the former betrothed (Elizabeth of York) who they've used to bring in the Edwardian Yorkists by declaring her the Yorkist heir. Ricardian Percy is up North contemplating surrender. Edwardian Lincoln has custody of Warwick.
So the first choice for powers that be is: declare Margaret Queen, the nearest Beaufort male (probably the eldest Stafford), or someone else. I don't see Jasper declared monarch over Margaret due to lack of a personal claim, and marrying Elizabeth to be king consort will alienate her and Stanley. Jasper was due to marry the Stafford widow OTL to control them as Henry's then male heirs so I see no reason that doesn't happen here too.
If Margaret is Queen the second choice is who her heirs are. Best choice here is probably the Staffords, young enough to mould and manipulate. That probably works if Edward Stafford is declared king too. If the latter then Margaret is probably Countess of Somerset with a seat on the regency.
Next is what to do with Elizabeth. Delegitimising seems unlikely so best bet is to betroth her to Margaret's closest male heir. If not Queen she's probably declared "Duchess" of York much as her cousin Anne St Leger was, and possibly restored as, Duchess of Exeter. Getting Anne onboard also counters the Lincoln claim as, if sisters are now being ranked, her potential son would have a better one. So her marriage also needs thinking about. What to do about Elizabeth's sisters is another question. Probably marry them abroad.
For the remaining Yorks the first question is whether to stay on board with the regime or resume the war, considering Elizabeth is effectively a hostage. An earlier Warbeck rebellion is probably on the cards. If it wins he's not a pretender!
Wouldn't Lincoln be Ricardian?
And wouldn't EoY be in Ricardian hands? (I srsly have no idea where she was, so this is a legit question)

More or less agree with the rest, but declaring her duchess won't sit well with the Yorkists......
 
Wouldn't Lincoln be Ricardian?
Possibly. I always get thrown where his sympathies lay!
And wouldn't EoY be in Ricardian hands? (I srsly have no idea where she was, so this is a legit question)
Last at Sheriff Hutton before the official betrothal I think.
More or less agree with the rest, but declaring her duchess won't sit well with the Yorkists......
Which ones?
Technically of course the Duchy ceased to exist with the death of Richard of Shrewsbury for whom it had last been recreated. So maybe merely Countess of one of her father's Earldoms before they merged into the crown? It depends how she and her title will be used and only applies if she isn't queen but presented as the Heiress of York.
 
Which ones?
Edwardians.
She has the highest Yorkist claim, so her being a "mere countess" won't sit well with them, even less so than if she was a Duchess.


Her marriage would probably determine her title, but her being anything less than "princess" is gonna have problems.

Also, would the betrothal even be considered legal ITTL? There were negotiations for her marriage with Manuel of somewhere(Viseu?) OTL
 
I still think his biggest problem would be his fellow Lancastrian nobles, who are unlikely to want to see him elevated. Apart from Jasper, Oxford and Stanley, who else is in the Tudor/Beaufort circle and powerful enough to get a voice?

The ranks of the high nobility are getting rather thin. There's Northumberland, but he's a confirmed two-timer and I think is still in prison at this point, as are Westmoreland and Norfolk. Lincoln and Lovell are Yorkists, Stafford and Warwick are kids.
Yeah the high nobility is decimated. The hypothetical monarch could probably horde a ton of dukedoms into the crown if it wasn't for the fact they would be in a desperate position from all being children, women, or shaky claims.

From what I can tell roughly:

Richadian Yorkists: Norfolk, Suffolk (sorta), Westmoreland, Lincoln, Warwick (duh), Lovell

Edwardian Yorkists: Dorset, Arundal, Essex, Kent, Wiltshire (maybe. he's a baby idk)

Lancasterians/Tudors: Buckingham, Pembroke, Oxford, Derby, Shrewsbury, Devon, Northumberland (probably), Beaumont, Lislie, Berkeley

Then the uncountable barons and knights underneath.
 
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Yeah the high nobility is decimated. They monarch could probably horde a ton of dukedoms into the crown if it wasn't for the fact they would be in a desperate position from all being children, women, or shaky claims.

From what I can tell roughly:

Richadian Yorkists: Norfolk, Suffolk (sorta. just barely), Westmoreland, Lincoln, Warwick (duh), Lovell

Edwardian Yorkists: Dorset, Arundal, Essex, Kent, Wiltshire (maybe. he's a baby idk)

Lancasterians/Tudors: Buckingham, Pembroke, Oxford, Derby, Shrewsbury, Devon, Northumberland (probably), Beaumont, Lislie, Berkeley

Then the uncountable barons and knights underneath.
Northemburland was Ricardian IIRC.
And Suffolk would be a strong supporter of his son's rights, right? (Idk he seems stupid to me)
 
Edwardians.
She has the highest Yorkist claim, so her being a "mere countess" won't sit well with them, even less so than if she was a Duchess.


Her marriage would probably determine her title, but her being anything less than "princess" is gonna have problems.
And why I think betrothing/marrying her to the young King Edward Stafford would be the best solution for Jasper, Stanley, et al. Having her as Duchess would also outrank Margaret as Countess of Somerset, though I suspect Margaret would then use Queen of Mann.
And why a rebellion is even more likely.
 
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