WI: Henry III Marries Agnes of Bohemia

[Kellan Sullivan]

What it says on the tin. Henry was presumably looking at such a match between the breaking of his betrothal to Yolande de Dreux (in 1226) and his marriage to Leonor of Provence a decade later.

I'm not sure why nothing ever happened with it. Maybe Bohemia was too far or not considered much in the way of a decent ally to have (the only Anglo-Bohemian match that DID happen OTL was unpopular for similar reasons. And the bride's childlessness didn't help matters).

But let's assume that Henry III decides to take the plunge. When does the marriage take place? Are there children? How is the marriage received in England? And without the queen of France's sister becoming queen of England, how does this affect relations between those two countries?

@Jan Olbracht @krieger @The Professor

 

[krieger]

What it says on the tin. Henry was presumably looking at such a match between the breaking of his betrothal to Yolande de Dreux (in 1226) and his marriage to Leonor of Provence a decade later.

I'm not sure why nothing ever happened with it. Maybe Bohemia was too far or not considered much in the way of a decent ally to have (the only Anglo-Bohemian match that DID happen OTL was unpopular for similar reasons. And the bride's childlessness didn't help matters).

But let's assume that Henry III decides to take the plunge. When does the marriage take place? Are there children? How is the marriage received in England? And without the queen of France's sister becoming queen of England, how does this affect relations between those two countries?

@Jan Olbracht @krieger @The Professor

The question is about which Agnes of Bohemia You are speaking? If it's about daughter of Premysl Ottokar I - bethrotal was blocked by an Emperor, who wanted to wed her by himself.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The question is about which Agnes of Bohemia You are speaking? If it's about daughter of Premysl Ottokar I - bethrotal was blocked by an Emperor, who wanted to wed her by himself.

That'd be the one I'm talking about. I was thinking that a good time for an imperial marriage for Aggie would've been after her erstwhile fiancé marries his Babenburg wife, and she gets wed to the emperor instead. However, since that didn't happen, I was sorta hoping we could get the emperor to be bought off with his OTL 3e marriage and Agnes weds Henry?

 

[krieger]

That'd be the one I'm talking about. I was thinking that a good time for an imperial marriage for Aggie would've been after her erstwhile fiancé marries his Babenburg wife, and she gets wed to the emperor instead. However, since that didn't happen, I was sorta hoping we could get the emperor to be bought off with his OTL 3e marriage and Agnes weds Henry?

It simply requires emperor to change his opinion. Maybe ITTL he can regard Agnes as very ugly, and therefore he will have no objections to marry her to Henry III? IOTL she was nun, so queen like this on the throne of England would be..hm...interesting?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It simply requires emperor to change his opinion. Maybe ITTL he can regard Agnes as very ugly, and therefore he will have no objections to marry her to Henry III? IOTL she was nun, so queen like this on the throne of England would be..hm...interesting?

I think it would be. I don't think she would be "ugly", maybe just nothing special in the looks department? And wasn't her taking the veil sort of a last ditch attempt to get out of marrying the emperor?

Perhaps Henry could offer the emperor the "more beautiful" Lady Isabella in exchange for losing out on wedding the Bohemian girl? (I have no idea whether Agnes or Isabella were or weren't lookers, but let's assume for the sake of argument that Isabella is perhaps incrementally more attractive

 

[krieger]

I think it would be. I don't think she would be "ugly", maybe just nothing special in the looks department? And wasn't her taking the veil sort of a last ditch attempt to get out of marrying the emperor?

Perhaps Henry could offer the emperor the "more beautiful" Lady Isabella in exchange for losing out on wedding the Bohemian girl? (I have no idea whether Agnes or Isabella were or weren't lookers, but let's assume for the sake of argument that Isabella is perhaps incrementally more attractive

It doesn't matter if she would be objectively ugly. All that matters would be what emperor thinks about her. Yes, but emperor was regarded as a enemy of Church. That's why she didn't want to marry him. With pious Henry, she wouldn't have such an objection. And it doesn't matter who Henry would offer - Agnes never marrier either emperor or his son, so I would do Hohenstaufens as IOTL.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It doesn't matter if she would be objectively ugly. All that matters would be what emperor thinks about her. Yes, but emperor was regarded as a enemy of Church. That's why she didn't want to marry him. With pious Henry, she wouldn't have such an objection. And it doesn't matter who Henry would offer - Agnes never marrier either emperor or his son, so I would do Hohenstaufens as IOTL.

Do you think she and Henry would have kids. I mean, with their combined piety we might be looking at a situation where both refrain from doing their marital duty due to religious convictions or such

 

[FalconHonour]

Do you think she and Henry would have kids. I mean, with their combined piety we might be looking at a situation where both refrain from doing their marital duty due to religious convictions or such

That would be interesting. Although I'm sure someone would at least try to point out that marriage is for procreation and Henry has a duty to his country to produce an heir, so it's a question of whether religious duties or duties to the country would win out, really.

 

[krieger]

Do you think she and Henry would have kids. I mean, with their combined piety we might be looking at a situation where both refrain from doing their marital duty due to religious convictions or such

I think that they could. Providing kingdom with heirs is a duty of good Christian monarch.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think that they could. Providing kingdom with heirs is a duty of good Christian monarch.

Well, Henry must've enjoyed "doing his duty" since IIRC, Leonor was pregnant about a dozen times, but how would Agnes do in Leonor's roles as leader of fashion and patronness of poetry (as well as being a poet herself)? Or would the court take on a more religious aspect?

 

[krieger]

Well, Henry must've enjoyed "doing his duty" since IIRC, Leonor was pregnant about a dozen times, but how would Agnes do in Leonor's roles as leader of fashion and patronness of poetry (as well as being a poet herself)? Or would the court take on a more religious aspect?

I suppose that court would take a more religious aspect, but Agnes was an educated woman too, so some poetry is not out of picture. The consequences of Agnes-Henry march would be visible in Great Interregnum, when Plantagenet candidate could receive Bohemian support (in exchange agreeing to transfer Austria and Styria to the Bohemia), so we could see a really great Bohemia and Plantagenet HRE.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I suppose that court would take a more religious aspect, but Agnes was an educated woman too, so some poetry is not out of picture. The consequences of Agnes-Henry march would be visible in Great Interregnum, when Plantagenet candidate could receive Bohemian support (in exchange agreeing to transfer Austria and Styria to the Bohemia), so we could see a really great Bohemia and Plantagenet HRE.

That could be interesting to see. Say Richard of Cornwall being a more successful candidate? Or do you think it would need to be one of Henry-Agnes' sons?

 

[krieger]

That could be interesting to see. Say Richard of Cornwall being a more successful candidate? Or do you think it would need to be one of Henry-Agnes' sons?

I think that it'd still Richard of Cornwall, but Agnes would mediate between him and her family, so Bohemia would get benefits (as I mentioned before) in exchange of supporting Richard.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think that it'd still Richard of Cornwall, but Agnes would mediate between him and her family, so Bohemia would get benefits (as I mentioned before) in exchange of supporting Richard.

That sounds like an awesome idea. I wonder how the relations between France and England would fare since their consorts aren't sisters here. And where would be a decent place for Leonor to wed instead

 

[krieger]

That sounds like an awesome idea. I wonder how the relations between France and England would fare since their consorts aren't sisters here. And where would be a decent place for Leonor to wed instead

Maybe Leonor could be wed to Vladislaus of Moravia, the eldest son of Wenceslas I? Bohemia's position rises, so it's not unlikely. I think that lack of Elenor on the throne on England wouldn't matter at all.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Maybe Leonor could be wed to Vladislaus of Moravia, the eldest son of Wenceslas I? Bohemia's position rises, so it's not unlikely. I think that lack of Elenor on the throne on England wouldn't matter at all.

Beyond the Londoners hating her and her uncles? I doubt Agnes would bring many relatives with her too?

 

[krieger]

Beyond the Londoners hating her and her uncles? I doubt Agnes would bring many relatives with her too?

I was referring to Franco-English relationships. There weren't enough relatives of Agnes to bring to England, so it wouldn't be technically possible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was referring to Franco-English relationships. There weren't enough relatives of Agnes to bring to England, so it wouldn't be technically possible.

Fair enough.
How many kids do you think she and Hal would manage?

 

[krieger]

Fair enough.
How many kids do you think she and Hal would manage?

I think the amount of surviving kids should be similar to Leonor (at least one surviving son and one surviving daughter)

 

[Ivan Lupo]

In OTL, the future Edward I, son of Eleanor of Provence, ended up saving his father's throne. All of Edward's exploits, his own devoted marriage to Eleanor of Castile, the conquest of Wales, the Hammering of the Scots, all butterflied away by a different bride for Henry III.

At any rate, it seems like Henry and Agnes would have gotten along very well, considering how pious both were. She apparently refused to get married and cloistered herself, but I suppose if she saw she might marry someone as pious as herself, maybe she wouldn't have been as opposed to a royal marriage.

Henry, at the time of this new marriage, would still be under the control of his advisors, such as Hubert de Burgh and Peter des Roches. If he finds himself married to someone who exceeds his own piety, I wonder if he might content himself with becoming more of a figurehead during his own reign and being more willing to delegate the responsibility of governance to those around him, while he and Agnes devote themselves to God and church. In OTL, Henry found himself struggling with his barons to assert his own authority, but a younger, more impressionable Henry might not get to that point, as he would be marrying Agnes at a pretty young age compared to how old he was when he married Eleanor of Provence.

The power of the crown could erode substantially and Henry might be OK with that, while the English barons become the real power in England and beyond.