WI: Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset Weds Katherine FitzAlan. Where Does Frances Brandon Wed?

As the title says. Henry was originally engaged to Katherine FitzAlan, and his mom, Margaret Wotton tried to make the marriage happen. However, Henry married Frances Brandon and Margaret got the bride's father to agree to support the newly weds until Henry reached his majority.

So, if Henry HAD married Katherine FitzAlan, where would Frances wed? OTL she wed during the lifetime of Anne Boleyn, although I don't see her wedding a Howard or one of their friends, and her brother. She's the highest ranked member of the royal family - directly behind the king's own issue and her brother (depending on which Act of Succession is in force) - although I don't see her marrying outside the country.

Any suggestions that AREN'T her OTL brother-in-law the earl of Cumberland?
 
I'm thinking that Frances is going to marry reasonably high (her OTL husband was both related to Henry VIII AND only outranked at court by her dad, the duke of Norfolk and her bastard cousin; AFAIK, excepting Anne Boleyn he was also the only marquess in England).

A marriage to a Howard seems unlikely - unless it comes down to either Mary for Richmond or Surrey for Frances, but not both (other families will get pissed at the Howards being so close to the throne here).
Buckingham's son is too old, and his grandson too young for Frances.
Richmond would be a decent though unlikely match.
Dorset's next brother is likewise too young.
Which means she'd probably get stuck with an earl or lower. Looking first at Plantagenet descendants.
The Courtenay boy is a decade too young (although he was mentioned as a possible second husband for Frances in Mary I's reign). Ditto for the earl of Worcester.
The earl of Surrey has already been discounted.
And Arthur Plantagent, Viscount Lisle has no sons (although THAT would make for a cool match).

Wydeville descended:
Dorset, Buckingham and Worcester (descended from Mary Wydeville's daughter, Baroness Herbert) have already been discounted.
The Earl of Essex only has an adulterous daughter. And the earl of Kent is in debt up to his eyeballs IIRC.
Then we've got the Percys but Harry isn't sleeping with his Talbot wife and he and his brother are on the outs IIRC.
The Neville earls of Westmoreland and the Manners Barons de Ros/earls of Rutland are in the same boat as the Courtenays (their son and heir being too young).
Can't think of any more Wydeville/Plantagenet descended candidates.

The Parr marquess of Northampton might do nicely, although his narriage to the Essex girl would make him unavailable.

Any other suggestions @mcdnab @desmirelle @VVD0D95
 
Although it's unlikely she'll marry outside of the country, it's not impossible. OTL, she was already married in the 1530's when people started coming around asking about Henry VIII's daughters and nieces. Here, if she is available, she might work as a match for someone like Alessandro de Medici, and that would make her Duchess of Florence. There are many other options available for her, and it might be interesting if she's offered around like her cousin was. The only reason she and her sister escaped the marriages games was that they were comfortably married off early. Here, the theoretical heiress to England (she was at any point 3rd to 6th in line for the Throne) is an interesting choice for any royal the King wants for an alliance. Basically, any OTL betrothal discussed for her first cousins in the 1530's is liable to be pushed for her, with exception to the Scottish Ones that specifically wanted Margaret Douglas.
 
As the title says. Henry was originally engaged to Katherine FitzAlan, and his mom, Margaret Wotton tried to make the marriage happen. However, Henry married Frances Brandon and Margaret got the bride's father to agree to support the newly weds until Henry reached his majority.

So, if Henry HAD married Katherine FitzAlan, where would Frances wed? OTL she wed during the lifetime of Anne Boleyn, although I don't see her wedding a Howard or one of their friends, and her brother. She's the highest ranked member of the royal family - directly behind the king's own issue and her brother (depending on which Act of Succession is in force) - although I don't see her marrying outside the country.

Any suggestions that AREN'T her OTL brother-in-law the earl of Cumberland?
Her cousin the Duke of Richmond and Somerset maybe? Knowing Henry that would be a perfect way for putting his son fully in the line of succession and a better match than the Howard girl...
 
Her cousin the Duke of Richmond and Somerset maybe? Knowing Henry that would be a perfect way for putting his son fully in the line of succession and a better match than the Howard girl...

I did think about that, but I also wondered if Henry would think that far. Richmond marrying Frances would either need to be BEFORE Henry marries Anne (who he believes is gonna give him lots of boys) or AFTER the death of Frances' mom (she didn't like Anne, or her husband's bastards, so I can't see why she'd think her brother's bastard is any better).
 
First, Henry Grey was the one who broke the betrothal - around the time he came of age (unlike H8, he didn't go ahead and marry the girl anyway). He wed Frances in 1533, the year Elizabeth is born. So, if you butterfly that one, then I think it's likely H8 will go ahead and wed her to his bastard son. (Brandon ain't gonna complain.) The reasoning will be that Anne FAILED to deliver what she promised and this marriage will be a punishment to Anne (and the Howards, but they're not the ones who didn't have a boy). I don't see Frances obeying Uncle Henry's edict that they not sleep together (Brandon is going to encourage that, because if they have a boy, Edward VI has a male to present as the next king instead of two bastard sisters and a questionable cousin.)
 
Duchess Mary Brandon did not like Anne because she blamed Anne (not Henry) for the annulment - Mary was great friends with Katherine of Aragon. So, one upping a Howard that Anne is promoting is a coup for Mary and a defeat for Anne.
 
Um...Frances married Dorset in May 1533, Mary Tudor died in June, and Elizabeth is born in September. Fitzroy only married in July 1536.

Is Henry gonna let Fitzroy marry earlier here then? Or is Frances gonna wait 3 years? And what of Mary Howard? Her dad's not gonna like her being dropped like a hot potato (if the marriage was already on the cards in 1533), although both Norfolk and Suffolk were ambitious enough bastards that I could see Howard offering his daughter as a new wife for Brandon/his heir once Mary Tudor dies/Brandon weds Katherine Willoughby
 
You may have hit upon a perfect swap. After Elizabeth's birth, Anne wants to promote her family. But H8 (being the capricious S.O.B. he was), might take Brandon's suggestion that Frances wed Fitzroy, with the aim of having a male heir from them. There's not a lot about Fitzroy's illness before 1536; it may have been something other than TB. H8 would listen to Brandon after Anne's failure (since they didn't know the male provided the gender). Especially if she has a miscarriage in 1534 - H8 might agree then. Any failure (miscarriage or another daughter) from Anne lowered her each time in Henry's esteem.

Technically, Fitz (to keep is short) is legal to wed the summer of 1533. Frances is a month shy of being two years his older. One year is nada if you're going to marry a man who may well (remember H8's thinking) be the next king of England.

So, Frances and Henry Fitzroy, autumn of 1534 (possibly immediately following the miscarriage) and a son in the summer of 1535. Hell, she could be pregnant when he dies and leave him with two sons. And it's entirely possible, given Frances' willpower, she'll nurse him through whatever killed him OTL (or, if it's TB, help him live longer).
 
After thinking about it, Brandon wouldn't marry a Howard. Unless Mary has a sizable dowry or property, then he might. Money was the reason for the marriage to Margaret (Anne Browne's aunt - Anne was the second official Mrs. Brandon, although they had a child before wedding) and for marrying Katie Willoughby. Since the Duke of Northfolk thinks Brandon is brazen social climber (like that was strange) nor does Anne have any affection for Brandon (officially - unofficially she may have been wishing she's met him when he was single and so was she!)
 
I'm curious about the Greys, namely Thomas Grey's kids by Cecily Bonville. According to some sources, Henry Grey was the eldest son of the second son, Thomas, 2e Marquess of Dorset Thomas had an elder brother (according to these sources) named Edward, who married a lady by the name of Anne Jermingham.

The reason I'm curious about Anne is that there are conflicting birthyears given (1484 being the earliest, 1500s the latest). Not only that but the stories don't add up. Anne is spoken of as being a maid-of-honour who went with Mary Tudor to France, implying that by 1515 she was still unwed. Then, somewhere between Mary marrying Louis XII and Brandon, Anne marries Edward (in France), and she is present at the christening of the elder Henry Brandon in 1516 (holding the boy at the font IIRC). Then her husband dies at some unspecified date BEFORE 1517.

Now, if Anne WAS born in 1484, she'd be 31yo by the time Mary Tudor weds Louis. Rather old for a maid-of-honour, isn't it? If she is born in the 1500s, then the maid-of-honour part fits, but why would Edward Grey have waited so long to marry? Surely Henry VII's distrust of the 1e Marquess of Dorset didn't extend so far?
 
Yes it is very weird - however if Lord Edward was the eldest surviving son of Thomas 1st Marquess of Dorset then he had to have died before 1501 because that's when his father died (and we know Thomas succeeded as 2nd Marquess then).

Add that to the St Leger betrothal and it gets even murkier and odder - most references say Thomas (the 2nd Marquess was betrothed to her) however that would be a bit unusual why him instead of his older brother the heir - the betrothal was obviously dropped after Richard III took the throne and Anne went on to marry George Manners.

Oddly the petition to the 1482 Parliament by Thomas Grey regarding the agreement does specify Thomas - as the said son and heir apparent - so I suspect the records are confused - that Thomas by 1482 was the eldest surviving son at that point and that the Edward Grey might well have been a younger brother of the same name perhaps
 
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Yes it is very weird - however if Lord Edward was the eldest surviving son of Thomas 1st Marquess of Dorset then he had to have died before 1501 because that's when his father died (and we know Thomas succeeded as 2nd Marquess then).

Add that to the St Leger betrothal and it gets even murkier and odder - most references say Thomas (the 2nd Marquess was betrothed to her) however that would be a bit unusual why him instead of his older brother the heir - the betrothal was obviously dropped after Richard III took the throne and Anne went on to marry George Manners.

Hence my problem understanding this whole thing. An heiress would make sense for a second/younger son (who isn't getting anything from dad) , or a first son if the inheritance is small. Edward Grey would be heir to the Dorset title as well as his mother, Baroness Harrington's stuff (not sure if it was cash or land). Thomas (as a second son) would make sense wedding an heiress who brings a title (or the prospect of one). Same goes for the reverse. If Thomas is the eldest, Ed would make sense marrying Anne St. Leger.

At least this is how I understand it. Don't know if it's necessarily the way things worked.
 
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