WI Heinkel 112 instead of ME Bf 110?

As quoted in James Hollands "The War in the West; Germany Ascendant 1939-1941"-

The second was the Messerschmitt 110, which was a twin-engine fighter and originally conceived as a long-range bomber escort. It was a particular favorite of Goring, and so no one dared to tell him it had numerous deficiencies, not least a slow rate of climb and dive, and a lack of maneuverability, which meant that in a dogfight with a half-decent single-engine fighter it was likely to come out second best. So taken was [Goring] with the Me110 that he named it the 'Zerstorer" (Destroyer) and created special Zerstorer fighter wings, plucking many of the best fighter pilots from the single-engine units to pilot them. And again, over Poland and in Norway, where they faced no modern opposition, the myth surrounding their potency only grew.

There was, however, another single-engine fighter that could have offered a more effective support act to the Me109E. This was the Heinkel 112, which had been put forward as a fighter plane at the same time as the 109 and had initially performed even better. The Luftwaffe had ordered further prototypes of both and by the time Messerschmitt had developed the 109E, Heinkel's 112E had speeds of more than 350 mph, was considered highly maneuverable, had a sold, inward-folding undercarriage and elliptical wings, and had an astonishing range of more than 715 miles, which was significantly better than that of the Me119. Its rate of climb was not quite as good as the Me109E's, but it could still reach 20,000 feet in ten minutes, which was as good as anything else out there. When Heinkel protested the Udet that his fighter should be given a contract, he was firmly told to drop the matter, which he did; after all, remours of Jewish blood had always dogged Heinkel, so it paid not to kick up too much of a fuss, and, in any case, Udet and Messerschmitt were particularly good friends as well as the professor being a good party man. None the less, that a plane as good and versatile as the Heinkel 112 as rejected, especially with its incredible range, was astonishing. Range would be critical in fighting over Britain. For the Luftwaffe, this was unfortunate because the failure to back the Heinkel meant a truely winning combination had been passed over.

If this was the case, then how would the use of the He112 instead of the Me110 in the Battle of Britain and indead other theaters have effected the war in the air? Obviously this would not have single-handedly won the war for the Nazis but how much would the war in the air have changed?
 
Are you certain that you mean to discuss the Heinkel 112? The subsequent He 100 (actually a redesignated He 113) was a proven record breaker- 463+ MPH, and would have been available for BOB.

Dynasoar
 
Are you certain that you mean to discuss the Heinkel 112? The subsequent He 100 (actually a redesignated He 113) was a proven record breaker- 463+ MPH, and would have been available for BOB.

Dynasoar
I'm going of what the book quotes, though if the He100 would have been and even better partner for the Me109 instead of the 110 then I would love to see the opinions on the He100 as well.
 
I'm going of what the book quotes, though if the He100 would have been and even better partner for the Me109 instead of the 110 then I would love to see the opinions on the He100 as well.
The He 100 was a war winner (as was the Fw 187). To be clear it was only the specialized racing version that got to 463 mph, the fighter version with fuel and armament would likely have been closer to 400.
 
Well, op is definately talking about the He-112 which could have been in service in hundreds at least by the outbreak of war.
But it is a Strange discussion, because the bf110 was already a light weight in comparison to the required specs. It was supposed to have had a bomb Bay....
Thus, to get the he112 in service you need to have the luftwaffe select two fighters (would have been a safer bet) from the onset, and for fw-187 they must realize the fighter part is more important than the bomber part.
Eventually he-100 could then have replaced he-112.
 
As quoted in James Hollands "The War in the West; Germany Ascendant 1939-1941"-



If this was the case, then how would the use of the He112 instead of the Me110 in the Battle of Britain and indead other theaters have effected the war in the air? Obviously this would not have single-handedly won the war for the Nazis but how much would the war in the air have changed?

He 112 instead of the Bf 110 will ean two fighters vs. one, so a net gain for the Axis. I've said 'Axis' since Germany can supply more fighters to their allies.
However, Mr. James Holland makes several mistakes re. He 112. Undercarriage was outward-retracting, not inward. It is also questionable whether the Bf 110 was procured as escort fighter erstwhile. Having or not having eliptical wings is a moot point. Range of 715 miles was achieved by the Jumo 210-powered examples, the He 112B carried less fuel than the Bf 109E - 317 vs. 400 L. Thus the Daimlerized He 112 will not match the range of the Emil unless also bigger fuel tanks are installed.
 
The Heinkel 112 could have been in widespread service by the start of the war and would have outshone the Bf109 in its early versions. Just as fast as the Hawker Hurricane with 300 horsepower less, two 20 millimetre cannons and could have served as a fighter bomber as well. Without the Bf110 there would have been lots of DB601s available to upgrade the performance later.
 
The He-112 only had one engine so it burned less fuel, that would be of extreme importance later in the war.
But without the Me-110 failing its original mission, Me-110s wouldn't have been available to become night fighters and bomber destroyers. Meaning fewer Bomber casualties come 1943 that would start to be felt.
It's not a clear cut win lose situation.
 
I think it would be simpler for the factories that built the Bf110 IOTL to build more Bf109s.

AFAIK the Luftwaffe was using drop tanks in the Spanish Civil War and they might give the Bf109 enough range for it to perform the long-range bomber escort mission that the Bf110 was originally intended for.

Would no Bf110 butterfly away the Me210, 310 and 410?

However, no Bf110 means that the Luftwaffe will have to build more night fighter versions of the Ju88 to fill the gap. AFAIK the Ju88 was a better night fighter than the Bf110 provided it was fitted with sufficiently powerful engines. However, AFAIK building one Ju88 required more man hours and raw materials than were required to build one Bf110.
 
I'm going of what the book quotes, though if the He100 would have been and even better partner for the Me109 instead of the 110 then I would love to see the opinions on the He100 as well.

The He-112A competed with Bf109, the He-112B just missed the bus, He-100 was a later project initiated by Heinkel.

The He-100 could maybe have been ready for BOB, but not in high numberss as I see it. Still a few hundred of those...

The He 100 was a war winner (as was the Fw 187). To be clear it was only the specialized racing version that got to 463 mph, the fighter version with fuel and armament would likely have been closer to 400.

At the time of the call for Bf-110, the Fw187 was a contender but very light weight for the Serstoerer role. If the Luftwaffe had decided that none of them has the bomb bay required, lets just pick the best long-range fighter it would have been F-187 with He-100 in there if someone remembered what Heinkel had been rambling about.

The Heinkel 112 could have been in widespread service by the start of the war and would have outshone the Bf109 in its early versions. Just as fast as the Hawker Hurricane with 300 horsepower less, two 20 millimetre cannons and could have served as a fighter bomber as well. Without the Bf110 there would have been lots of DB601s available to upgrade the performance later.
Just to be clear, you must mean the 112B.
Its tricky to say it would have out-shone the Bf109. That was a very competitive interceptor with the best RoC. But it was a bit faster, well armed and with longer range. Much better choice for BOB indeed, but its questionable what the strategic importance would have been.
A longer more costly BOB for both sides would still have the RAF recycling its pilots and if it leads to the go-ahead for sea lion its probably even worse (probably because of the immense butterflies).
 

MrP

Banned
If this was the case, then how would the use of the He112 instead of the Me110 in the Battle of Britain and indead other theaters have effected the war in the air?
This question piques my interest as well.

One potential issue is mass production: Would the He 112 have been more difficult or more expensive to assemble in large numbers than the Bf 109 was in OTL? Also, when would the design have reached the end of its development cycle?
 
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Just to be clear, you must mean the 112B.
Its tricky to say it would have out-shone the Bf109. That was a very competitive interceptor with the best RoC. But it was a bit faster, well armed and with longer range. Much better choice for BOB indeed, but its questionable what the strategic importance would have been.
A longer more costly BOB for both sides would still have the RAF recycling its pilots and if it leads to the go-ahead for sea lion its probably even worse (probably because of the immense butterflies).

Stick the 1000+ HP engine on the He 112 airframe and the range drops under what Bf 109E offered.
 
Unless this aircraft can somehow undermine the UKs very comprehensive air defence network, British Industries ability to outbuild Germany in aircraft and fighter commands ability to maintain its dominance over the UK than very little impact.

Also many aircraft that upon initial investigation had astonishing potential ranges and performance envelopes over their actual in service peers tended to provide a less astonishing result once they entered production and had the extra weight of wartime equipment actually installed.
 
A good point MrP!

Me 109 succeeded because it was simple and designed for mass-production. YouTube has an excellent video of Me 108 production which emphasizes how "production oriented" Willy Messerschmitt was.
OTOH elliptical wings required highly-specialized tooling and skilled operators. Difficulty with double-curved wing skins was one of the reasons that Spitfire production was so slow at the beginning. Post-war, elliptical wings were largely abandoned because of the high cost of production and tight tolerances required for supersonic flight.
Parts-count and the number of specialized tools could make-or-break Heinkel 112 production.
Straight lines on He100 look easier to produce but the devil is in the details.
 
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OTOH elliptical wings required highly-specialized tooling and skilled operators. Difficulty with double-curved wing skins was one of the reasons that Spitfire production was so slow at the beginning. Post-war, elliptical wings were largely abandoned because of the high cost of production and tight tolerances required for supersonic flight.

Spitfires were demanding, production-wise, mostly due to having built-up ribs - parts for each rib were 1st produced (dozen or so per one rib) and then put together using riveting. Compared with, say, Bf 109 or P-40 ribs, where one rib = one stamped part in most of the cases. Put that together with Bf 109 being smaller aircraft with less ribs needed and there is no wonder the manhours ratio was several times in favor of the 109.
Elliptical wings were mass produced in Germany, Japan, Italy, UK and the USA in ww2.
I'm not sure that elliptical wings will be that good for supersonic flight, even if they can be constructed in such maner.
 
Elliptical wings made in the USA?
The only ellipticals I can think of were a few made by Seversky and the 15,000 or so P-47 Thunderbolts built by Republic. Even those were only semi-elliptical with straight leading edges and curved trailing edges. Straight leading edges are much easier to manufacture with far less specialized tooling. Curved trailing edges (e.g. ailerons) are much simpler to build with fabric-covering.

Ironically, modern development is going in the opposite direction with Shuemann Wings that have curved leading edges and straight or swept trailing edges. Shuemann wings only became practical after they learned how to build composite wings (in female molds) to tight tolerances.
Many modern airliners use Shuemann wings to reduce drag when they cruise at high altitudes in the Trans-sonic range.
I cannot remember the last supersonic airplane with elliptical wings???????
 
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Elliptical wings made in the USA?
The only ellipticals I can think of were a few made by Seversky and the 5,000 or so P-47 Thunderbolts built by Republic. Even those were only semi-elliptical with straight leading edges and curved trailing edges. Straight leading edges are much easier to manufacture with far less specialized tooling. Curved trailing edges (e.g. ailerons) are much simpler to build with fabric-covering.

It was 15600+ copies of the P-47; 272 P-43s, 193 P-35s. A good deal of P-47s was produced by people to whom the P-47 was the 1st aircraft they touched. Vast majority of P-47s was produced with metal ailerons, the ribs were stamped sheet metal.
 
Prandtl wrote his paper on elliptical wings at the end of WWI, and the Spitfire was the closest example of the type to his theoretical design. What made the build tricky was the one-piece construction of the leading edge as a component of the torsion box when joined with the wing spar. While ellipticals didn't thrive into the jet age, ogivals did, including a cute F-16XL, and a supersonic jet transport named after a grape.

The fact remains that our historian botched his figures and facts in making his proposition, creating a myth which is a miss.
Dismythed.
 
Prandtl wrote his paper on elliptical wings at the end of WWI, and the Spitfire was the closest example of the type to his theoretical design. What made the build tricky was the one-piece construction of the leading edge as a component of the torsion box when joined with the wing spar. While ellipticals didn't thrive into the jet age, ogivals did, including a cute F-16XL, and a supersonic jet transport named after a grape.

Wing internals:
Spitfire
compared to:
Bf 109
P-39
P-51
Typhoon

It does not take an elliptical wing if we want another zillion manhour wing, and again from a company well known for it's inter-war racers - the Macchi Castoldi:
MC.200 series


The fact remains that our historian botched his figures and facts in making his proposition, creating a myth which is a miss.
Dismythed.

Bingo.
 
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