WI: Hedwig of Anjou, King of Poland Has a Son Instead of a Daughter?

krieger · May 19, 2019

marcinL said:
Wearing too many crowns at once will likely lead to weakening royal power in all these kingdoms - even worse if the Jagiellons manage to get elected to Czech crown when Vaclav dies.

Not to OTL extent, and not every TL has to be ideal. Despite of existence (or not) of certain royal, people will also have flaws. While the situation I envision, might not be the best deal for Siggie or even Jogaila himself, it can be a fairly good deal for Garai (for example). He has more freedom in his actions ITTL, because he can proclaim the heir of Angevins a new king even without the consent of his father. This way, Garai can become de-facto ruler of Hungary without being hated by a rest of nobility, he can have Polish swords protecting his power and he can block Ladislaus d'Anjou a road to the throne. For him, it'd be the dream. And Jogaila is forced to collaborate with him. And Bohemian crown became elective only after death of Vladislaus Posthumous.

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2019

Two follow up questions:

When Jogaila remarries. Is Margarethe of Austria (b.1395) (or some other Austrian princess) an option? On the premise that the enemy (Habsburgs) of my enemy (Luxemburgs) is my friend.
If Barbara of Celje dies young, does this absolve Siggie from his promise to marry her?

TheNerd_ · May 21, 2019

What if Hedwig doesn't die, has two children, One Poland-Lithuania, One Hungary.

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2019

TheNerd_ said:
What if Hedwig doesn't die, has two children, One Poland-Lithuania, One Hungary.

Considering her and her sister's OTL track records, I'm not even sure this is likely. Her parents were married for quite some time (over a decade, I think) before they had kids; her sister (Mary) was married in 1387, and only had her first child in 1395; while Hedwig married in 1386, and took 13 years to get pregnant.

krieger · May 21, 2019

Kellan Sullivan said:
Considering her and her sister's OTL track records, I'm not even sure this is likely. Her parents were married for quite some time (over a decade, I think) before they had kids; her sister (Mary) was married in 1387, and only had her first child in 1395; while Hedwig married in 1386, and took 13 years to get pregnant.

In Hedwig's case low fertility was connected with extremely narrow pelvis. Remove this and you would have Hedwig being as fertile as average woman in Middle Ages. Mary had her first child later, but it was only due to Sigismund's absence, Sigismund was at war with Ladislao's supporters, so he didn't have time to visit his wife's bedchamber frequently.

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2019

krieger said:
In Hedwig's case low fertility was connected with extremely narrow pelvis. Remove this and you would have Hedwig being as fertile as average woman in Middle Ages. Mary had her first child later, but it was only due to Sigismund's absence, Sigismund was at war with Ladislao's supporters, so he didn't have time to visit his wife's bedchamber frequently.

Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that it was just a low fertility thing. Which made me wonder if the extinction of either the Luxemburgs or Jagiellons wouldn't have just been delayed a generation in the event of Mary and or Hedwig having issue.

Any thoughts on the idea above of Barbara dying before the marriage can be entered into? Whether it would absolve Siggie from his promise to her father?

krieger · May 21, 2019

Kellan Sullivan said:
Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that it was just a low fertility thing. Which made me wonder if the extinction of either the Luxemburgs or Jagiellons wouldn't have just been delayed a generation in the event of Mary and or Hedwig having issue.

Any thoughts on the idea above of Barbara dying before the marriage can be entered into? Whether it would absolve Siggie from his promise to her father?

Of course it'd absolve Siggie from his promise to her father. Barbara had no sisters and Siggie cannot marry a dead person. Hermann might suggest his niece, Anna of Celje, OTL wife of Jogaila instead. Extinction of Jagiellons is more complicated, because apart from purely biological things, mental factor also contributed. Jan Długosz, tutor of children of the most fertile couple in the history of Jagiellons despised Jagiellons as elective kings and Lithuanians and raised royal children by reminding them that they should be grateful to nobility for letting them exist. It caused extremely low self-esteem among royal sons, who often didn't marry till their 40's. If Jagiellons ITTL could trace their ancestry to Hedwig, than Długosz at least won't raise them in the feeling of their worthlessness, so they could marry earlier, lessening chances of extinction.

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2019

krieger said:
Of course it'd absolve Siggie from his promise to her father. Barbara had no sisters and Siggie cannot marry a dead person. Hermann might suggest his niece, Anna of Celje, OTL wife of Jogaila instead. Extinction of Jagiellons is more complicated, because apart from purely biological things, mental factor also contributed. Jan Długosz, tutor of children of the most fertile couple in the history of Jagiellons despised Jagiellons as elective kings and Lithuanians and raised royal children by reminding them that they should be grateful to nobility for letting them exist. It caused extremely low self-esteem among royal sons, who often didn't marry till their 40's. If Jagiellons ITTL could trace their ancestry to Hedwig, than Długosz at least won't raise them in the feeling of their worthlessness, so they could marry earlier, lessening chances of extinction.

How the Hell did this guy even get the job? That'd be like Lenin becoming tutor to Tsarevich Alexei (that's how seriously screwed up that is).

Jan Olbracht · May 21, 2019

Kellan Sullivan said:
How the Hell did this guy even get the job? That'd be like Lenin becoming tutor to Tsarevich Alexei (that's how seriously screwed up that is).

Casimir's IV upbringing methods were clearly horrible. Perhaps he assumed, that his sons really would be better men if raised by someone who is harsh for them? After all chronicler (I think it was Długosz himself) noted that "nothing was more pleasant for King's ears than screams of his sons beaten by their teacher" or something like this.

TheNerd_ · May 21, 2019

Jan Olbracht said:
"nothing was more pleasant for King's ears than screams of his sons, beaten by their teacher"

Wlad Jr. can't possibly do this badly. Jaggelonians last until the early 19th century and are then replaced by a cadet branch in the 20th century.

Kellan Sullivan · May 21, 2019

Jan Olbracht said:
Casimir's IV upbringing methods were clearly horrible. Perhaps he assumed, that his sons really would be better men if raised by someone who is harsh for them? After all chronicler (I think it was Długosz himself) noted that "nothing was more pleasant for King's ears than screams of his sons beaten by their teacher" or something like this.

So Kas was a kinky guy then

Into some spanking?

Sounds worse than Franz Josef who gave Crown Prince Rudolf harsh teachers because some idiot at court recommended it'd toughen Rudi up. Or Louis XIV who gave le Grand Dauphin a misanthrope for a tutor because he was scared his son would lead the opposition to him if the boy was educated too well. And don't get me started on Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia.

Jan Olbracht · May 21, 2019

Career of Zbigniew Oleśnicki would be butterflied away likely ITTL without Jogaila's troublesome non-dynastic marriages, Długosz (cardinal Oleśnicki's protege) is thus Mr Nobody ITTL.

krieger · May 21, 2019

Kellan Sullivan said:
How the Hell did this guy even get the job? That'd be like Lenin becoming tutor to Tsarevich Alexei (that's how seriously screwed up that is).

He was good at hiding his views from royal eye and Casimir sort of ignored what exactly Długosz is teaching his sons. However, Długosz (if hired by Jagiellon descended from Hedwig) would at least not teach royal sons, that without permission of nobility they're worthless. This would improve the situation.

Jan Olbracht said:
Career of Zbigniew Oleśnicki would be butterflied away likely ITTL without Jogaila's troublesome non-dynastic marriages, Długosz (cardinal Oleśnicki's protege) is thus Mr Nobody ITTL.

Not necessarily, Oleśnicki shared a lot of views with Queen Hedwig and ITTL such ambitious and smart man as him could use her sympathy to get career. However, TTL Oleśnicki will be at least loyal to the Queen and her sons and their descendants, and he will teach Długosz to be like this (instead of OTL Oleśnicki telling Długosz that Jagiellons are close to worst scum ever and we need to tolerate them only due to fulfill the promise of incoporation of Lithuania into Poland).