WI: Hedwig of Anjou, King of Poland Has a Son Instead of a Daughter?

[Kellan Sullivan]

Premise is pretty self-explanatory. Hedwig of Anjou gives birth to a son in June 1499 instead of a daughter. The boy is healthy, christened Ladislaus Bonifacius, although mom still dies in July.

How does this affect things? Hedwig had taken the title of "heir to Hungary" since her sister's childless death. While her husband was generally at sixes and sevens with the future Emperor Sigmund. Add a son for Jogaila (while Siggie remains childless)"and I could see things getting even more tense. What happens in Poland though? Do things go as OTL (at least for the next 15-20 years (what's the majority age?) with a regency led by Jogaila)? Or do we start seeing a change in things almost immediately?

@krieger @Jan Olbracht

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Hedwig dies and she has only one kid, so it would not be easy for Jogaila to claim Hungary, not now. Having son of Piast and Angevin blood he would not be in hurry to remarry IMHO.

 

[kasumigenx]

Halshany might marry the son not Jogaila.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hedwig dies and she has only one kid, so it would not be easy for Jogaila to claim Hungary, not now. Having son of Piast and Angevin blood he would not be in hurry to remarry IMHO.

So no marriage to Anna of Celje? How would Siggie react to there being a rival "blood" claimant to the throne of Hungary? I imagine Siggie might remarry faster (he only rewed to Barbara of Celje in December 1405 (nearly a decade after Mary of Hungary's death in May 1395) no?

Halshany might marry the son not Jogaila.

Any particular reason for this? AIUI Sonka brought no real gains to the marriage, beyond bearing Jogaila two sons. His daughter by Anna of Celje was already recognized as heir, and if his third wife had survived, it's unlikely he would've had more kids.

 

[kasumigenx]

So no marriage to Anna of Celje? How would Siggie react to there being a rival "blood" claimant to the throne of Hungary? I imagine Siggie might remarry faster (he only rewed to Barbara of Celje in December 1405 (nearly a decade after Mary of Hungary's death in May 1395) no?



Any particular reason for this? AIUI Sonka brought no real gains to the marriage, beyond bearing Jogaila two sons. His daughter by Anna of Celje was already recognized as heir, and if his third wife had survived, it's unlikely he would've had more kids.

Another problem of Jogaila is that he is less than 7 degrees of consanguinity with Jadwiga.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

If not the fact that Jogaila desperately needed sons no one would even think about Halshany girls. Only advantage Sonka had was her youth, and Jogaila's doctors told him, that old man and young girl would have lots of kids.
Allegedly Hedwig d'Anjou suggested candidate for her husband's second wife on deathbed, but if she had a healthly son, she would care much more about his future and his succession.

Sigismund would have serious troubles once Vladislaus Jr grows up-Siggie was not very popular among Hungarians and had no hereditary rights to the throne, while period of Angevin rule was remembered as Golden Age of Hungary, so existence of half-Angevin prince would not be something Sigismund would like. I wonder if Sigismund would let his daughter marry Vladislaus Jr in such case-that would calm down pro-Angevin opposition in Hungary.

 

[kasumigenx]

If not the fact that Jogaila desperately needed sons no one would even think about Halshany girls. Only advantage Sonka had was her youth, and Jogaila's doctors told him, that old man and young girl would have lots of kids.
Allegedly Hedwig d'Anjou suggested candidate for her husband's second wife on deathbed, but if she had a healthly son, she would care much more about his future and his succession.

Sigismund would have serious troubles once Vladislaus Jr grows up-Siggie was not very popular among Hungarians and had no hereditary rights to the throne, while period of Angevin rule was remembered as Golden Age of Hungary, so existence of half-Angevin prince would not be something Sigismund would like. I wonder if Sigismund would let his daughter marry Vladislaus Jr in such case-that would calm down pro-Angevin opposition in Hungary.

Jogaila also lacks dispensation to marry his wife Jadwiga who is his 3rd or 4th cousin, that might be exploited by someone else.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

If not the fact that Jogaila desperately needed sons no one would even think about Halshany girls. Only advantage Sonka had was her youth, and Jogaila's doctors told him, that old man and young girl would have lots of kids.
Allegedly Hedwig d'Anjou suggested candidate for her husband's second wife on deathbed, but if she had a healthly son, she would care much more about his future and his succession.

Sigismund would have serious troubles once Vladislaus Jr grows up-Siggie was not very popular among Hungarians and had no hereditary rights to the throne, while period of Angevin rule was remembered as Golden Age of Hungary, so existence of half-Angevin prince would not be something Sigismund would like. I wonder if Sigismund would let his daughter marry Vladislaus Jr in such case-that would calm down pro-Angevin opposition in Hungary.

So no Sonka for Wladek, and possibly no Anna of Celje for Jogaila?

Would Siggie be interested in puffing up a rival so much? ISTR reading that Eliska of Bohemia was married to Albrecht II as part of a mutual inheritance treaty between the Habsburgs and the Luxemburgs. And is Siggie really going to be interested in marrying a then 8yo (Barbara of Celje)? Is there no one else (more appropriately aged) that he could wed?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

So no Sonka for Wladek, and possibly no Anna of Celje for Jogaila?

Would Siggie be interested in puffing up a rival so much? ISTR reading that Eliska of Bohemia was married to Albrecht II as part of a mutual inheritance treaty between the Habsburgs and the Luxemburgs. And is Siggie really going to be interested in marrying a then 8yo (Barbara of Celje)? Is there no one else (more appropriately aged) that he could wed?

Sigismund certainly would not want to be kicked out of Hungarian throne, if perspective of marriage of his heiress with half-Angevin son of Jogaila would increase his chances to remain on the throne he could consider that option.
Agewise Sigismund's niece Elizabeth of Görlitz (once proposed to Jogaila after death of Hedwig of Cili) would be better

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Jogaila also lacks dispensation to marry his wife Jadwiga who is his 3rd or 4th cousin, that might be exploited by someone else.

It would depend on who that someone else is. IIRC Fernando and Isabel's marriage likewise lacked a dispensation (and they were a lot closer than Hedwig/Jogaila), or rather, the dispensation was as phoney as a three dollar bill, no one bothered too much with that (despite France and Portugal both having an interest in doing so). Situation is similar here. Siggie in the role of Portugal/France (albeit more powerful) and Hedwig-Jogaila in the role of Fernando and Isabel. He has an interest in overturning it, but the pope would risk Jogaila "relapsing" into paganism, and probably taking a large portion of Lithuania (who would be unhappy about the Christianization policies) with him. Not to mention that there being more than one pope at the time presents a problem (see Jacqueline of Bavaria's marriage to the duke of Gloucester - according to one pope it was valid, according to another, she was still married to her previous husband).

So, does his Holiness declare Wladek a bastard and piss off Poland, Jogaila, and whomever else might have an interest in this, by pandering to Siggie (or whomever's) vanity - remember, Siggie was almost as unpopular in Poland as he was in Hungary - not to mention that he runs the risk of Poland going over to the antipope. Or does he swallow the pill and quietly issue a post-facto dispensation?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Agewise Sigismund's niece Elizabeth of Görlitz (once proposed to Jogaila after death of Hedwig of Cili) would be better

For Siggie (I have this image of a Luxemburg Carlos II), Jogaila (I'm guessing) or Wladek?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

For Siggie (I have this image of a Luxemburg Carlos II), Jogaila (I'm guessing) or Wladek?

For Władek Jr. Only 3 years older than him. IOTL Elizabeth refused to marry Jogaila (seeing him as Lithuanian barbarian) but his son is born from devout Christian mother and raised as Christian in Christian country-that makes difference. And he could be her first husband, butterflying away her Brabant marriage.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

For Władek Jr. Only 3 years older than him. IOTL Elizabeth refused to marry Jogaila (seeing him as Lithuanian barbarian) but his son is born from devout Christian mother and raised as Christian in Christian country-that makes difference. And he could be her first husband, butterflying away her Brabant marriage.

So how will Jogaila having a legitimate son born from a marriage to Hedwig (rather than the more distant claim that Anna of Celje's kids would have had; versus the no claim that Sonka of Hlashany's kids had) affect things in Poland? AIUI a lot of the loss of the king's powers in Poland were tied to Jogaila having to barter them away to get his son by Sonka recognized as heir, no?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

So how will Jogaila having a legitimate son born from a marriage to Hedwig (rather than the more distant claim that Anna of Celje's kids would have had; versus the no claim that Sonka of Hlashany's kids had) affect things in Poland? AIUI a lot of the loss of the king's powers in Poland were tied to Jogaila having to barter them away to get his son by Sonka recognized as heir, no?

In Poland Jagiellons would rule as hereditary monarchs (even IOTL with Sonka's sons it was still possible, but actions of bishop Oleśnicki ruined Jogaila's chance to estabilish hereditary rule of his dynasty in Poland).
In Lithuania OTOH things would be more complicated-Vytautas should became more suspicious, but after disastrous Battle of Vorskla he wouldn't be in position to emancipate from Jogaila's rule.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

In Poland Jagiellons would rule as hereditary monarchs (even IOTL with Sonka's sons it was still possible, but actions of bishop Oleśnicki ruined Jogaila's chance to estabilish hereditary rule of his dynasty in Poland).

Interesting. Might we see a (temporary/permanent) split between Poland and Lithuania?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Interesting. Might we see a (temporary/permanent) split between Poland and Lithuania?

Vytautas has no sons, that, and disaster of Vorskla, are the only reason he would not seek for independence IMHO. He would still be Grand Duke (Jogaila's son is too young to take this function).

 

[krieger]

Premise is pretty self-explanatory. Hedwig of Anjou gives birth to a son in June 1499 instead of a daughter. The boy is healthy, christened Ladislaus Bonifacius, although mom still dies in July.

How does this affect things? Hedwig had taken the title of "heir to Hungary" since her sister's childless death. While her husband was generally at sixes and sevens with the future Emperor Sigmund. Add a son for Jogaila (while Siggie remains childless)"and I could see things getting even more tense. What happens in Poland though? Do things go as OTL (at least for the next 15-20 years (what's the majority age?) with a regency led by Jogaila)? Or do we start seeing a change in things almost immediately?

@krieger @Jan Olbracht

At first, there wouldn't be any regency, because Jogaila will remain reigning king until his death. He was crowned alongside his wife, his son is only his mothers heir at that point. In Poland, the birth of a son is a revolution for future events. Nothing is going to stay as it was OTL. Monarchy will stay hereditary, so it means that Polish monarchy will develop more like typical Western European monarchy. Jogaila doesn't lose his authority and is in position to be demanding from the nobles. He would not sign a charter of priviledges ("neminem captivabimus") crippling royal power.

Hedwig dies and she has only one kid, so it would not be easy for Jogaila to claim Hungary, not now. Having son of Piast and Angevin blood he would not be in hurry to remarry IMHO.

When referring to situation of Hungary, we should also remember that Sigismund was imprisoned once by Nicholas II Garai. Nicholas II Garai was the son of Nicholas I Garai, the palatine of Hungary who died for Mary's (elder sister of Hedwig) cause. He supported Sigismund and Mary (Nick II) in fighting with Croatian rebels, but he fell intro quarell with Sigismund and imprisoned him. IOTL, he proposed Hungarian crown to Jogaila, but was convinced by his mother to change opinion and restore Sigismund's rule. Would Garai's mother still want Sigismund being restored? Would Garai himself prefer Sigismund over the rightful heir of the cause, for which his father sacrificed his life? Jogaila will be more active, while having a son than IOTL. Death of Hedwig caused him to be depressed for a while, he even agreed on Lithuanian throne going full elective after his childless death in OTL 1401. Now having a son, Jogaila has reasons to stay active an to secure the future of his dynasty. He wouldn't decline Hungarian crown for Garai, and Sigismund would be lucky if Garai didn't kill him ITTL. IMHO, Garai would send Sigismund to Cracow as a hostage and declare Jogaila a new king. Jogaila won't remarry to Anna of Cillei, because he found her ugly and married her only for claims to Polish crown. ITTL, Jogaila has already a son with better claims than Cillei girl and has no reasons to marry her. Jogaila taking Hungarian throne would also have interesting consequences for Balkans. With combined forces of Poland, Lithuania and Hungary, Wallachia and Moldavia have no other option apart from pledging allegiance to Jogaila. Jogaila would most likely depose Mircea I the Old, because he didn't trust him and regarded him as a traitor. Wallachia could be given to Jogaila's younger brother, Svitrigaila as a fief. Why is it so important? Because it means that Hungarian and Wallachian troops will be with Jogaila on campaign in Prussia in 1410. It increases the chances of Jogaila's forces taking Marienburg succesfully. If Hungarian troops fight on the Jogaila's side, the war will go better, and if the war will go better, than there is a chance that Henry von Plauen, the man who saved TO IOTL won't escape Polish captivity. IOTL he was imprisoned in some obscure castle by Polish knight called Janusz Brzozogłowy and escaped only due to TO forces besieging said castle succesfully. If Hungarians and Wallachians are on Jogaila's side than TO forces might not besiege said castle succesfully and Plauen won't (most likely) escape. Plauen was the man who organized defense of Marienburg and if he wasn't at place, Marienburg (the capital of TO) would fall. Only problem will be the forces of von Havelmann in Konigsberg, but they will have no rescue, so either von Havelmann would agree to submit to Jogaila or he will be destroyed sooner or later. So Teutonic Order will be at least forced to sign an agreement like II Peace of Thorn, or completely kicked out of Prussia. Another reason why it is so important, is that Wallachian forces while being in Prussia, cannot be on Balkans. And IOTL Mircea I the Old helped Mehmed I to subjugate his brother, pro-Christian Sulayman Celebi, who ruled in Balkans. So if Mircea can't give his help to Mehmed, we can see Turkey splitting.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Jogaila will be more active, while having a son than IOTL. Death of Hedwig caused him to be depressed for a while, he even agreed on Lithuanian throne going full elective after his childless death in OTL 1401. Now having a son, Jogaila has reasons to stay active an to secure the future of his dynasty.

Did not know that, but here, even if he is depressed, it's likely to not be full-blown apathy like OTL.

When referring to situation of Hungary, we should also remember that Sigismund was imprisoned once by Nicholas II Garai. Nicholas II Garai was the son of Nicholas I Garai, the palatine of Hungary who died for Mary's (elder sister of Hedwig) cause. He supported Sigismund and Mary (Nick II) in fighting with Croatian rebels, but he fell intro quarell with Sigismund and imprisoned him. IOTL, he proposed Hungarian crown to Jogaila, but was convinced by his mother to change opinion and restore Sigismund's rule. Would Garai's mother still want Sigismund being restored? Would Garai himself prefer Sigismund over the rightful heir of the cause, for which his father sacrificed his life?...He wouldn't decline Hungarian crown for Garai, and Sigismund would be lucky if Garai didn't kill him ITTL. IMHO, Garai would send Sigismund to Cracow as a hostage and declare Jogaila a new king.

From what I can make out, there were a lot more people who were in favour (especially in Croatia) of Ladislas of Durazzo than either Jogaila or Sigmund. And even with a son who is heir, Siggie can still make trouble with the TO, so would Jogaila run the risk of pissing him off. Sure, he can keep Siggie as hostage indefinitely, but would Jogaila's dislike of Siggie be so great that he couldn't be bought off with a massive ransom (the Luxemburgs still rule in the Netherlands and Bohemia, so it's not like there's nowhere to scrounge money from)? He has the advantage over Siggie here (he has a son, while Siggie is still childless). And also, I can't see the Hungarians (whether Wladek is heir or no) wanting to end up in PU with Poland again.

Jogaila taking Hungarian throne would also have interesting consequences for Balkans. With combined forces of Poland, Lithuania and Hungary, Wallachia and Moldavia have no other option apart from pledging allegiance to Jogaila. Jogaila would most likely depose Mircea I the Old, because he didn't trust him and regarded him as a traitor. Wallachia could be given to Jogaila's younger brother, Svitrigaila as a fief. Why is it so important? Because it means that Hungarian and Wallachian troops will be with Jogaila on campaign in Prussia in 1410. It increases the chances of Jogaila's forces taking Marienburg succesfully. If Hungarian troops fight on the Jogaila's side, the war will go better, and if the war will go better, than there is a chance that Henry von Plauen, the man who saved TO IOTL won't escape Polish captivity. IOTL he was imprisoned in some obscure castle by Polish knight called Janusz Brzozogłowy and escaped only due to TO forces besieging said castle succesfully. If Hungarians and Wallachians are on Jogaila's side than TO forces might not besiege said castle succesfully and Plauen won't (most likely) escape. Plauen was the man who organized defense of Marienburg and if he wasn't at place, Marienburg (the capital of TO) would fall. Only problem will be the forces of von Havelmann in Konigsberg, but they will have no rescue, so either von Havelmann would agree to submit to Jogaila or he will be destroyed sooner or later. So Teutonic Order will be at least forced to sign an agreement like II Peace of Thorn, or completely kicked out of Prussia. Another reason why it is so important, is that Wallachian forces while being in Prussia, cannot be on Balkans. And IOTL Mircea I the Old helped Mehmed I to subjugate his brother, pro-Christian Sulayman Celebi, who ruled in Balkans. So if Mircea can't give his help to Mehmed, we can see Turkey splitting.

Interesting. Svitrigaila was the one whose son was elected as king of Bohemia in the 1430s, right?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Nothing is going to stay as it was OTL. Monarchy will stay hereditary, so it means that Polish monarchy will develop more like typical Western European monarchy. Jogaila doesn't lose his authority and is in position to be demanding from the nobles. He would not sign a charter of priviledges ("neminem captivabimus") crippling royal power.

Would this count even if OTL Elzbieta Bonifacia were to survive as well? Or would this only be the case if Jogaila has a son with Hedwig?

 

[TheNerd_]

a lot more people who were in favour (especially in Croatia) of Ladislas of Durazzo

Kingdom of Two Sicilies-Hungary FTW?