WI: Hawker Henley as a viable combat aircraft?

[NOMISYRRUC]

This is the production of the Gloster Gladiator by year
1937 - 252
1938 - 158
1939 - 320
1940 - 16 - the last was delivered in April 1940
Total - 746

This is the production of the Hawker Henley by year
1938 - 10
1939 - 171
1940 - 19
Total - 200

This is Gloster's production of the Hawker Hurricane by year
1939 - 32
1940 - 1,211
Total - 1,243

This is Gloster's total annual produciton over 1937-40
1937 - 265
1938 - 169
1939 - 524
1940 - 1247
Total - 2205

The discrepancy of 4 aircraft consists of the 2 Gloster F.5/34 prototypes and the 2 Gloster F.9/37 prototypes.

 

[fastmongrel]

Ok, but some of this requires spending more money...

Theres your problem the Treasury is not going to come up with anymore money.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Theres your problem the Treasury is not going to come up with anymore money.

The part that costs A LOT more money is building more Wellingtons and Hampdens instead of the Blenheim and Battle. IIRC the estimated cost of the Wellington was £18,000 while the Battle and Blenheim were about £12,000 each.

OTOH some of the changes save money. IIRC a Spitfire was cheaper than a Defiant.

 

[Just Leo]

Transport Aircraft

1. IIRC Short and Harland built 50 Bristol Bombay bomber-transports out of 80 ordered and an order for 30 De Havilland Hertfordshire transports based on the DH95 Flamingo was cancelled at the outbreak of World War II.
2. However, Airspeed had a licence to build the DC-3 and sell it in the British Empire (less Canada) which it bought from Fokker, which in turn had bought it from Douglas.
3. ITTL I want the airlines and the RAF King's Flight to buy Airspeed built DC-3s instead of the Flamingo and the RAF to buy 110 DC-3s with a cargo door from Airspeed in place of the Bombay and Hertfordshire.

This comes as a shock to me, and contrary to information as I know it. What I knew was that Airspeed was owned by De Havilland, and had licenses for two unsold Fokker transports which didn't sell because they were inferior to the DC-3. None produced by Airspeed.

 

[Just Leo]

OTOH some of the changes save money. IIRC a Spitfire was cheaper than a Defiant.

But a Defiant didn't have any production snags, compared to finding someone who could roll a Spitfire leading edge.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This comes as a shock to me, and contrary to information as I know it. What I knew was that Airspeed was owned by De Havilland, and had licenses for two unsold Fokker transports which didn't sell because they were inferior to the DC-3. None produced by Airspeed.

According to its Wikipaedia entry De Havilland didn't buy Airspeed until 1940. I've got a list of the Douglas and Fokker aircraft that Airspeed had licences on, which I made from the Putnams book on Airspeed aircraft.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

But a Defiant didn't have any production snags, compared to finding someone who could roll a Spitfire leading edge.

And more Spitfires had been delivered by September 1939 than Defiants.

Edit

This is the number of fighters, Henleys and Lysanders on charge at the outbreak of World War II

31 Hawker Fury Mk I
62 Hawker Fury Mk II
122 Hawker Henley
145 Gloster Gauntlett
257 Westland Lysander
270 Supermarine Spitfire
320 Gloster Gladiator
400 Hawker Hurricane

 

[tomo pauk]

I've got to like the Henley, such versatility and opportunities for different roles.

Here's the Henley with 40mm cannon, ideal for CAS.
...

Hawker Hurricane IID with Vickers S gun fitted with littlejohn squeezebore adaptor for trial, May 1944, and found wanting.

The data on Vickers S gun, all together with Littlejohn adapter, can be found on this web page, part of the excellent web site.

 

[Just Leo]

And more Spitfires had been delivered by September 1939 than Defiants.

270 Supermarine Spitfire

Actually, 306 Spitfires had been delivered, with 36 written off in accidents.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Actually, 306 Spitfires had been delivered, with 36 written off in accidents.

My list was the number of aircraft the RAF had on charge, i.e. the number it actually had on that date, not the number delivered.

 

[sonofpegasus]

How many Blenheim fighters had been built and issued by August 1939?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

How many Blenheim fighters had been built and issued by August 1939?

They only built (converted) 200 of them anyway so not many. They would only just have been entering service. Very much a lash up while they worked on the Beaufighter.

 

[Just Leo]

What was this thread about anyway?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Get the Henley into combat, we seem to have got a bit distracted (again).
Assign them to Army Co Operation Command rather than training command. They'd have been much more suitable than the Hectors slaughtered over Calais.

 

[sonofpegasus]

My thinking was rather than 200 Henleys as target tugs some one in the AM (one of Trenchard's Bomber only types) has a 'light bulb moment' and thinks, if we give Fighter Command 200 eight gun Henley long range fighters, Bomber command gets 200 more Blenheim bombers, to the AM that is a win win result! Certain politicians will like it as it gives a quicker expansion of the bomber force. Use the Henelys in the northern groups and in 1940 they end up scoring well against the unescorted Luftwaffe raids on Scapa and all points north.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Get the Henley into combat, we seem to have got a bit distracted (again).

Assign them to Army Co Operation Command rather than training command. They'd have been much more suitable than the Hectors slaughtered over Calais.

I agree, but I still think that Hurribombers would be more useful because they could be used as fighters as well as bombers according to need.

 

[merlin]

I agree, but I still think that Hurribombers would be more useful because they could be used as fighters as well as bombers according to need.

The problem with that is that in France in 1940 the need will be for fighters, fighters and more fighters. The French weren't asking the RAF for more ground-attack aircraft or bombers, they wanted more squadrons of fighters sent over, Dowding had the sense to say 'no', but they still went over during the day and hopefully came back at night.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

How many Blenheim fighters had been built and issued by August 1939?

The closest I can come to that is 111 Blenheim Mk IF on charge at the outbreak of World War II out of 1,089 Blenheims in the RAF.

The total stock of bombers and army co-operation aircraft at the outbreak of World War II was as follows, but it includes many obsolete biplanes used as trainers.

196 Armstrong Whitworth Whitley
11 Boulton Paul Overstrand
1 Boulton Paul Sidestrand
1,089 Bristol Blenheim
1,014 Fairey Battle
44 Fairey Gordon
212 Handley Page Hampden
86 Handley Page Harrow
5 Handley Page Hereford
41 Handley Page Heyford
452 Hawker Audax
31 Hawker Hardy
188 Hawker Hart
357 Hawker Hart Trainer
158 Hawker Hector
122 Hawker Henley
226 Hawker Hind
145 Hawker Hind Trainer
4 Vickers Virginia
152 Vickers Wellesley
172 Vickers Wellington
257 Westland Lysander
125 Westland Wallace
71 Westland Wapiti
5159 Total

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

They only built (converted) 200 of them anyway so not many. They would only just have been entering service. Very much a lash up while they worked on the Beaufighter.

The Blenhiem Mk IF equipped 7 out of the 35 squadrons in the Main Force of Fighter Command at the outbreak of World War II and instead of being a stopgap for the Blenheim they were a stop gap for the Defiant.

 

[fastmongrel]

Get the Henley into combat, we seem to have got a bit distracted (again).
Assign them to Army Co Operation Command rather than training command. They'd have been much more suitable than the Hectors slaughtered over Calais.

There were only 6 Hector's used over Calais as far as I can tell they flew dive bombing sorties with two 112 pound bombs on the 25th may and lost none, on the 26th they flew 6 supply dropping sorties and lost 2. Hardly a slaughter but also hardly worth it.