WI: Harold waits?

Zioneer

Banned
So, I've read that Harold Godwinson's biggest mistake at the Battle of Hastings, was to engage Norman troops without all his own soldiers.

I've also heard it said that there were a couple of reasons that Harold, though a decent (and intelligent) commander, chose to engage Duke William when he did.

Reason 1: The Normans, who were notorious for being brutal raiders, if I remember right, were landing on Harold's old personal domain. He really hated that because, HE was KING, and how dare they touch his family's ancestral lands!

Reason 2: Supposedly, Harold was quite a pious ruler, and was disturbed when he learned that the Pope gave a Papal flag to the Normans, and was apparently horrified that the Pope believed William's story about Harold swearing loyalty to him.

So what if, in his first act as king, Harold sends word to the Pope that he will enact several religious reforms, to make the Pope less desirous to support the Normans?

What if, he also takes a moment to think, before rushing off to fight Duke William, and gathers as many troops as he can?

What effect does that have on the Norman Conquest?
 
The problem of Harold waiting is that his aemy may well get smaller, not larger. Williams raids of the land around Hastings were a direct challenge to Harolds authority and position as King and Earl, as the key thing a lord provided was protection. If Harold was unable to protect his people, his authority would be damaged and so in an environment where the Northern Earls were already reluctant supporters this could lead to the fyrd deserting to protect their homes, and certainly reduces the credibilty of Harold to rule, even if he does win.
 

Zioneer

Banned
The problem of Harold waiting is that his aemy may well get smaller, not larger. Williams raids of the land around Hastings were a direct challenge to Harolds authority and position as King and Earl, as the key thing a lord provided was protection. If Harold was unable to protect his people, his authority would be damaged and so in an environment where the Northern Earls were already reluctant supporters this could lead to the fyrd deserting to protect their homes, and certainly reduces the credibilty of Harold to rule, even if he does win.

But didn't Gyrth Godwinson, one of Harold's brothers, try and convince Harold to wait only a day or two more for reinforcements? What if Harold listened to him, but ignored Gyrth's suggestion to not fight William at all?

As for Harold's Authority being weakened, couldn't Harold point out that they'd probably rather have a fellow Anglo-Saxon on the throne than a foreign Norman? Or offer a few concessions to the Northern earls?

And in the wake of victory against the Norman invaders, wouldn't he have quite a deal of credibility, if he defeats them?
 
There's waiting and there's waiting.

Waiting a couple of days for reinforcements is not the same as sitting on one's behind for weeks while the Normans rape, pillage, and destroy.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
If Harold waited two days and gained the necessary forces to beat William The Bastard, would he distance himself from the Pope? Would he look to strengthen and expand his housecarls? Maybe an even a second fleet (one at Grimsby and one at Southampton) ?

The first use of crossbows in England leaves some samples for Harold's craftsmen to work from. The use of cavalry will have been noted, but will that change anything? At Agincourt the mounted knights still fought on foot.

Would England develop slower/faster? How would things be different? We would have workers freed from building Norman keeps (and later castles), but without the point of a sword to encourage them, would they do much more than produce a surplus of crops?

hastings-map.gif

Battle of Hastings as it was OTL.

So what if more housecarls and fyrd turn up after a two day wait (some, marked as moving here, turning up during the battle)? Might Harold have a problem convincing William to attack with a stronger force defending. Although it wouldn't be a strong enough force to attack. He might order his force to hold back and let William's force come to them (more so than OTL).

Alternatively:

ATLhastings-map.GIF
 
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If Harold had waited and called in the fyrd he would certainly have destroyed William's forces, as his brother had suggested.

Alternately he could have sent his existing forces under Gyrth to engage William while calling in the much greater forces available in reserve.

Given the speed with which Harold was able to move an army 190 miles to meet and destroy Harald Hardrada it is doubtful it would have taken that long to bring in more of the fyrd.



One suggestion for why he refused to wait was posited by David Howarth, in 1066 The Year of the Conquest, where he suggests it was the word, correct or not, that William was fighting under the papal banner and that Harold was or would be excommunicated, that made him determined to strike before word of this could spread. Further, even after Hastings there were sufficient forces to defeat William but the English archibishops first prevented Edgar from being crowned and then yielded to William.


The northern earls were in no position to defy Harold. In the negotiations prior to the Battle of Stamford Harold offered to depose them entirely and reinstate his brother, this after he had been meeting with the great men of York and much of the north, which strongly suggests that they were now very unpopular with their own subjects and only held on due to Harold's victory over Tostig and Hardrada.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Okay, so the POD (if I make a timeline) is this: Harold listens to Gyrth, letting him fight a delaying action against William, while Harold gathers the fyrd, re-gaining the support of the Northern Earls by threatening to depose them in favor of his brother Tostig, just as he had done vice-versa before. He also points out that they would probably rather be ruled by a fellow Saxon, then by a foreign Norman.

Gyrth, while not the best leader, manages to hold off the Normans long enough for Harold to gather a large force of Housecarls and Thegns. The heir of Godwin quiets rumors of Papal support for the Normans by proclaiming that "no illegitimate son of a tanner could ever gain the Pope's favor".

Harold then rushes to Hastings with his larger force to show that not even the Normans can stand before him.

William, by now desperate to win, but still confident in the power of his cavalry and archers, engages Harold at Hastings.

So, in the Battle of Hastings, the beginning proceeds as in OTL.

The archers, though quite deadly, are mostly ineffective against the Saxon shield wall.

William, undaunted, orders his (relatively powerful) infantry to charge the Saxon shield wall to break it. The barrage of missiles from the Saxons on the hill thins out the Norman ranks, causing a brutal hand-to-hand fight to take place, as in OTL.

William's luck turns better than in OTL after he charges with his Calvary, managing to weaken the ranks of the English, and killing Earl Gyrth. This allows the Norman divisions of his army to stay in the fight. However, the Breton regiment still flees, as does the Flemish one.

Knowing that in a hand-to-hand combat with the English, his troops will lose, Duke William withdraws his remaining troops to Telham Hill, and rallies about half of his Flemish troops.

After this temporary lull in the fighting for about an hour, William realizes that if he can kill Harold and his brothers, then there will be no effective resistance to his claim to the English Throne, and that more immediately importantly, the Saxons will lose their will to fight.

He notes the effectiveness of his cavalry, and orders a charge into the Saxon lines once more.

This time, he is not so lucky. He is knocked to the ground (as in OTL), and with the greater numbers of Saxons present at the battle this time, he cannot rally his troops. He is captured by King Harold's forces.

The English crush the remnant of his forces, and capture or kill about two-thirds of the Norman army. William is brought to London as a prisoner.

So, now that I have a PoD, what will be the general European reaction to William's capture? France will probably be angry, but what about everyone else?
 
The book I mentioned makes the suggestion that Tostig was suffering from a mental illness leading to long-term insanity, so different had his character and personality become over a period of @15 years.

Possibly true, possibly not, but some of his behavior, especially his talks with Harald Hardrada, suggested that something was not right there.


SplendidTuesday, OTL William lost about one third of his army, if Harold mustered half of the fyrd available then his forces could be four or five times greater than OTL, so it's very doubtful William will do even that well. More importantly is the supply situation, if Gyrth just keeps his force in being to threaten William and make it impossible to search for supplies...

Afterwards the questions as to what happens when the Pope's favorite is killed, most likely William's brother, a high ranking prelate and friend of the Pope, also killed and even the papal banner probably defiled.
 

Zioneer

Banned
The book I mentioned makes the suggestion that Tostig was suffering from a mental illness leading to long-term insanity, so different had his character and personality become over a period of @15 years.

Possibly true, possibly not, but some of his behavior, especially his talks with Harald Hardrada, suggested that something was not right there.


SplendidTuesday, OTL William lost about one third of his army, if Harold mustered half of the fyrd available then his forces could be four or five times greater than OTL, so it's very doubtful William will do even that well. More importantly is the supply situation, if Gyrth just keeps his force in being to threaten William and make it impossible to search for supplies...

Afterwards the questions as to what happens when the Pope's favorite is killed, most likely William's brother, a high ranking prelate and friend of the Pope, also killed and even the papal banner probably defiled.

Hmm, so the sources I've heard about William being a fantastic military leader are a bit... biased? Huh.

So, say he fails in his first cavalry charge, and is captured, but not killed? Harold may not like the fact that William has the Papal banner, but he, as a relatively pious king, and one trying to establish his authority, can't just have William (as a prisoner) killed.

I suppose he'd force William to publicly give up his claim on the English throne, but what would be another prudent prize to take from William?
 
William was certainly impressive in his determination to invade England, his construction of a fleet from scratch, etc. but since there were so many points where he could have failed or been defeated I'm not sure he could be classified as brilliant.

The odds of William not being killed if he falls to the Saxons aren't too good, indeed, I doubt he would allow himself to be taken, he surely knows that means the end of his ambitions, possibly the end of his rule in Normandy and the pope seems likely to cut him loose.
 
Hmm, so the sources I've heard about William being a fantastic military leader are a bit... biased? Huh.

Well, even if he was that good, shield walls are tough things and he may not have had much experience fighting them. Besides, losing a third of your army and gaining such a large and (potentially) wealthy land? Not a bad deal, to me. Though I have to agree with Grimm that everything seemed to go William's way. Just one of those things, I guess.
 
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