WI: Habsburgs do not Rise

What if Count Werner Idoes not make any babies and therefore does not put them on the path to owning many of the European monarchies.
 
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Butterflies are massive. But you presumably have a different Emperor than the Habsburg one who reigned during the 13th century, and secured Osterreich for the dynasty. After that, history would probably proceed along OTL until the 15th century at the very latest, I mean there'd probably be a different Golden Bull, if there even is one.
 
You don't need to go back that far for the Habsburgs.

The decisive dynastic events that happened by chance happened in a période of only 23 years, between 1477 and 1500 :
- 1477, marriage of Marry of Burgundy with Maximilian of Habsburg,
- 1497 : death childless (he only had a posthumous dead-born daughter) of Don Juan, only son of Isabelle of Castile and Fernando of Aragon,
- death of Miguel of Portugal, son of the eldest daughter of Isabelle of Castile and Fernando of Aragon.

Only then did Charles of Habsburg, future Emperor Charles V, become heir of all the spanish inheritance.
 
@ Matteo: I have to disagree here. The most important event for the Habsburgs was the reign (1273-1291) of king of the Romans Rudolf I of Habsburg (1218-1291). His revindication policy (aimed at illegally seized fiefs during the interregnum), and his two victories against Ottokar II of Bohemia (in 1276 and 1278), made it possible to grant the duchies of Austria & Styria to his sons in 1282.
That solidified their position as one of great houses in the Empire.

Also between 1437 and 1457 the Habsburgs of the Albertine branch already managed to succeed the house of Luxembourg in Bohemia, Hungary-Croatia and indirectly* the Holy Roman Empire. (*= elective)

Frederick III, Maximilian, Philip the Handsome, Charles V and Ferdinand all belonged to the Leopoldine branch of the house of Habsburg, which already by the reign of Frederick had outlasted previous branches.

IMHO before 1273 the best they could hope for was achieving something similar to the OTL house of Württemberg.
 
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I understand Jan. You are right and I never meant that the Habsburg had not risen to an important level of power before the dates I chose.

My point was to show that nothing decisive had happened before.

Frederick III was a very week emperor. Before the marriage between his son Maximilian and Mary of Burgundy, the house of Habsburg by itself was not more important inside the HRE than the house of Wittelsbach or than the house of Jagellon.

Some other dynasty could have obtained election as holy roman emperor before the events I mentioned.

It's only with these dynastic events and accidents that the House of Habsburg became the super powerhouse of Europe and that it was more or less unassailable.
 
The Albertine Habsburgs were pretty much on their way to become one the major houses in Europe, when they inherited Bohemia and Hungary-Croatia from the house of Luxembourg.
The unfortunate Ladislaus the Posthumous died at the age of 17; there are a few possible causes of death most likely Leukemia, maybe bubonic plague, but poison can't be ruled out completely.
His death 'relegated' the Habsburgs back from a great house in Europe to a great house in the Empire.

Frederick III was not a great ruler, it didn't mean he didn't any qualities, but statesmanship wasn't his strong suit. One could argue that patience was one of his qualities.

However I do agree, that the marriage between Maximilian and Mary was a second chance (first one for the Leopoldine branch).

OTOH the Habsburg did attempt to gain Bohemia (Rudolf I of Bohemia) and even Hungary before 1437; and they did briefly succeed in Bohemia (1306-1307).
 
Odd, Wiki claims the first "Habsburg" was Radbot, who built the eponymous castle. Apparently 1020 or so. This is the father of the Werner you are talking about.

Hunh. German wiki http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammliste_der_Habsburger#M.C3.B6gliche_Abstammung_der_Habsburger
shows Landolt/Lanzolin as the founder of the House, even if it wasn't until his grandson that the eponymous castle was built.

Fascinating.

Landolt/Lanzelin might have been the son of Guntram the Rich. OTOH Radbot was the son of Landolt/Lanzelin.
So I guess it depends on how one defines founder. Radbot build the castle, but the dynasty can (at least) be traced back to Landolt/Lanzelin.

Anyway preventing the reign of king of the Romans Rudolf of Habsburg, probably is enough to prevent the Habsburg to rise, without to need to have them go extinct.
 
I think the Premyslids will focus on the HRE rather than Poland, Poland will be divided into two-three states before finally unifying in a later time.
 
Alright, I would've responded last night, but I was stuck waiting for my account to be activated by the mods.

I think the most significant happening if the Habsburgs were essentially erased from history would be where that would leave Austria and who would lead the Holy Roman Empire. Duke Frederick II of Austria was the Babenberg in charge of the Duchy of Austria, which had been ruled by Babenbergs since about the 12th Century. The Babenberg's conflicts with the neighboring Kingdom of Hungary finally resulted in the Duke Frederick II getting killed during the Battle of the Leitha River. This effectively extinguished the Babenberg family as they had no remaining male heirs. Nearby, in Bohemia, King Wenceslaus tried unsuccessfully to gain Austria diplomatically by marrying his heirs into the remaining female Babenbergs. Gertrude of Babenberg married Herman VI of Baden, ruining Wenceslaus's chances until Herman VI died in 1250, at which point Wenceslaus invaded Austria. He released his son in 1251 who he had imprisoned due to a noble rebellion not long before, and he appointed him Governor of Austria as well as Margrave of Moravia. The Austrian nobles appointed him as Duke of Austria and he married Maragret of Babenberg to strengthen his rule. When Wenceslaus died in 1253, Ottokar became King of Bohemia. After strengthening his influence and power in Europe for many years by carrying out different wars and alligning himself with certain people, Ottokar II was one of the most powerful men in Europe. At this point, Ottokar's next goal was to win the title of Holy Roman Emperor, something he was unsuccessful in in OTL as Rudolf of Habsburg won the title in 1273. As OTL goes, Ottokar isn't happy, starts a war, loses, and Habsburgs gain control of Austria, badda bing badda boom.

Here's where we diverge from the OTL. Without any Habsburgs in his way, Ottokar II is elected Holy Roman Emperor. As Holy Roman Emperor, assuming he doesn't piss anyone off, he establishes the Premyslid Dynasty as the most powerful family in the Holy Roman Empire. From here, any number of things could happen, but it's really difficult to speculate as it's too early on for many accurate predictions, and there's no way of knowing what sorts of characters would be born of said dynasty. Perhaps they would be crushed by the Ottoman invasions and Europe would be devastated. Perhaps they would have all of the strength required to keep the HRE under control during the Protestant split. I couldn't say how Spain would unite, if at all, without Habsburg rule. After Ferdinand and Isabella died in OTL, Philip I of the Habsburgs ascended to the throne of Castile. Perhaps without this happening, Henry VIII of England never would have married Catherine of Aragon and instead would have married her older sister, Joanna of Castile. Perhaps this wouldn't have happened, since Henry VIII was a friend of Philip I and this friendship greatly influenced his marriage choice. Since Habsburg Spain was one of the most expansionistic of all of the Spanish monarchies, it may be that Spain's colonization of the New World was not nearly as extensive as under the Habsburgs.

There's other ideas, but I kind of got to the point that I didn't feel like writing anything else, but essentially many of the events that helped shaped the modern world either changed drastically or didn't happen at all. Kind of crazy to think about how important the Habsburgs were.
 
@ Rawhide_Kobayashi: Rudolf of Habsburg was very much a compromise candidate.
OTL by 1273 Ottokar II had accumulated such a powerbase, that the other great houses of the Empire felt threatened. So his candidacy to become HRE was off the table, long before Rudolf became a candidate.
Initially the electors were thinking about a candidate with close dynastic ties with the house of Hohenstaufen, but the Papacy didn't approve of that.
Finally they were thinking about candidates, which had belonged to the Hohenstaufen 'party', it's only at this point that the count of Habsburg and the count (prince (as in fürst)) of Anhalt were considered.

OTL in 1276 a broad coalition of princes of the Empire lead by the king of the Romans (Rudolf of Habsburg) defeated Ottokar II for the first time. As a result Ottokar II regained Bohemia & Moravia as fiefs of the empire, but all his acquisations (Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, the Windic march etc.) were returned to the Imperial administration.
In 1278 some of Rudolf's former allies had been disappointed, but he himself had gained in strength. This time it was more a situation, where the ''personal'' armies of Rudolf & Ottokar and their allies met in battle. OTL Rudolf managed a decisive victory and Ottokar II ended up dying in this battle. Only after this point Rudolf was really able to transfer territories to his house, but still not everything. His sons gained the most important bit (Austria & Styria) in 1282, and in 1286 he made his friend and ally Meinhard of Gorizia-Tirol duke of Carinthia and margrave of Carniola (including the Windic march).

Anyway if Rudolf wouldn't have been elected, then it would not have meant they would have elected Ottokar II instead. Ottokar II by this point had become or was perceived as a serious threat by the prince-electors and other great houses in the empire. IMHO they were glad to break up that powerbase, even when not everyone was always happy with Rudolf, OTOH Rudolf had also married all his daughters into worldly prince-electoral families. If someone else had been elected, he IMHO would also have come into conflict with Ottokar, like OTL 1276, OTL 1278 is less certain.
 
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