WI: Habsburg Portugal w/o Philippine Union

Jan I think a Habsburg Portugal without an union with Spain will work better with ATL Sebastian being a girl and married to Archduke Charles of Styria because either Carlos die young (but after his father’s wedding to Mary Tudor because a Philip without an heir will likely marry Marguerite of France) or João simply decided he wanted an older and less-related husband for his grandaughter and heiress...
 
Why not Archduke Charles II? He's older than her but he was older than is OTL (who was his niece). And IIRC Philip had been putting him forward for marriage to Mary Stuart. So when that fails he'd be single just around the time Philip is looking to marry off his daughter.

Seems like a marginally better idea - more distance between him and the imperial throne for one, not QUITE as related to Felipe's daughter as Ernie or Mats. Plus, it's a marriage to a cousin once removed rather than a niece like OTL so perhaps that will bode better for the Portuguese genetics.

Another CRAZY idea for a bridegroom would be half-uncle D. Juan.
 
Jan I think a Habsburg Portugal without an union with Spain will work better with ATL Sebastian being a girl and married to Archduke Charles of Styria because either Carlos die young (but after his father’s wedding to Mary Tudor because a Philip without an heir will likely marry Marguerite of France) or João simply decided he wanted an older and less-related husband for his grandaughter and heiress...

D. Juan and Alessandro Farnese check both the boxes of João's wishlist. Plus they're successful military commanders (which Archduke Karl WASN'T IIRC)
 
D. Juan and Alessandro Farnese check both the boxes of João's wishlist. Plus they're successful military commanders (which Archduke Karl WASN'T IIRC)
Juan is a bastard and Alessandro Farnese is not an Habsburg... Archduke Charles is an Habsburg and his lands can very well be given to one of his younger nephews
 
I can think of two ways for an independent Habsburg Portugal, though one involves the Iberian union. The first one would be to have a Portuguese Infanta marry a second son of Spain, then have her only brother die and leave her as heiress. Boom eventual Habsurg dynasty in Portugal. The second one is a little more out there. During Felipe IV's reign his brother Don Carlos had been appointed to become Viceroy of Portugal, but died before taking the office. Have him live to become Viceroy and when the revolt happens, puts himself at its head (there was supposedly deep tension between him, Felipe and the Count-Duke of Olivares, so its possible) and become King of Portugal instead of the Duke of Braganza. Might be less probable but with some tweaking could work.
 
Juan is a bastard and Alessandro Farnese is not an Habsburg... Archduke Charles is an Habsburg and his lands can very well be given to one of his younger nephews

It was just a suggestion. I DID say it was out there.

I can think of two ways for an independent Habsburg Portugal, though one involves the Iberian union. The first one would be to have a Portuguese Infanta marry a second son of Spain, then have her only brother die and leave her as heiress. Boom eventual Habsurg dynasty in Portugal. The second one is a little more out there. During Felipe IV's reign his brother Don Carlos had been appointed to become Viceroy of Portugal, but died before taking the office. Have him live to become Viceroy and when the revolt happens, puts himself at its head (there was supposedly deep tension between him, Felipe and the Count-Duke of Olivares, so its possible) and become King of Portugal instead of the Duke of Braganza. Might be less probable but with some tweaking could work.

I'd like to see a surviving D. Carlos who has a line that either inherits Spain (eventually), Portugal or Naples.
 
I'd like to see a surviving D. Carlos who has a line that either inherits Spain (eventually), Portugal or Naples.

But if Carlos lives or has descendents then that means an Iberian Union if the Aviz dynasty still dies out. The idea of leaving different Kingdoms to different sons had died out by this time. So I don't see how that would allow a separate Habsburg Portugal.
 
But if Carlos lives or has descendents then that means an Iberian Union if the Aviz dynasty still dies out. The idea of leaving different Kingdoms to different sons had died out by this time. So I don't see how that would allow a separate Habsburg Portugal.

I was talking about Felipe IV's brother. The situation that you outlined. He places himself at the head of the Portuguese revolt (perhaps Felipe IV/Olivares tries to remove him because he isn't visibly servile enough to Madrid, in order to that they can replace him with someone who is). The Portuguese revolt, Carlos at their head, and declare independence from Spain. Then, if things still go as OTL and we wind up with Carlos II in Spain, his sister might be married to her cousin (the prince of Portugal) to restore the union - not like that that was unthinkable, since there were plans OTL to wed Carlos II to Luiza Isabel "la Sempre Noiva" of Portugal, and before that, Catarina of Bragança to D. Juan José.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Hmm, problem with Carlos is most accounts of him describe him as pretty weak willed, Olivares certainly thought him pretty tame and non-threatening (in contrast to Fernando). So I'm not sure he'd be the one to assume control in Portugal. Maybe you'd be better with Alphonse Maurice, a blank slate that you could turn into a resentful ambitious youngest brother.
 
Hmm, problem with Carlos is most accounts of him describe him as pretty weak willed, Olivares certainly thought him pretty tame and non-threatening (in contrast to Fernando). So I'm not sure he'd be the one to assume control in Portugal. Maybe you'd be better with Alphonse Maurice, a blank slate that you could turn into a resentful ambitious youngest brother.

If, as in the situation outlined above - where he marries Maria Anna of Austria in a double match with his sister wedding Johann Ferdinand - I'm sure his wife could give ihm the necessary backbone. OTL she espoused what was good for Bavaria even if it ran counter to what was good for Austria. I could almost see her playing a D. Leopoldina role (to Carlos' Pedro I) encouraging Carlos to rebel and to declare independence if what Madrid wants isn't good for Lisbon. She would probably be his left hand, his right, and most times his brain, in dealing with the Portuguese.
 
I was talking about Felipe IV's brother. The situation that you outlined. He places himself at the head of the Portuguese revolt (perhaps Felipe IV/Olivares tries to remove him because he isn't visibly servile enough to Madrid, in order to that they can replace him with someone who is). The Portuguese revolt, Carlos at their head, and declare independence from Spain. Then, if things still go as OTL and we wind up with Carlos II in Spain, his sister might be married to her cousin (the prince of Portugal) to restore the union - not like that that was unthinkable, since there were plans OTL to wed Carlos II to Luiza Isabel "la Sempre Noiva" of Portugal, and before that, Catarina of Bragança to D. Juan José.

Sorry I got my D. Carlos's confused, my bad:oops:. However, I'm not sure the marriages would go so easily. After all, Carlos would be betraying his brother and the Habsburg dynasty. So I can't see Felipe IV allowing a marriage with his traitor brother's children. Nor can I see the Austrians siding with Lisbon over Madrid. Things might change if the Spanish line still starts to go extinct though, especially as they have the closest blood claim in the male line. Though I would expect a renunciation of Spain to be a condition of the eventual peace treaty with Portugal.
 
Sorry I got my D. Carlos's confused, my bad:oops:. However, I'm not sure the marriages would go so easily. After all, Carlos would be betraying his brother and the Habsburg dynasty. So I can't see Felipe IV allowing a marriage with his traitor brother's children. Nor can I see the Austrians siding with Lisbon over Madrid. Things might change if the Spanish line still starts to go extinct though, especially as they have the closest blood claim in the male line. Though I would expect a renunciation of Spain to be a condition of the eventual peace treaty with Portugal.

Pedro I betrayed the Braganças doing what he did in Brasil. And Austria doesn't necessarily need to side with Lisbon. After Élisabeth de Bourbon's death, (one of) the French and English tie to Spain is broken. So, if Maria Anna-Carlos can persuade England/France that Portugal is the horse to back - Richelieu would probably be all for it, and the traditional Anglo-Portuguese alliance can be revived. Maybe open another theatre of the 30YW?

I admit that it's a bit of a stretch. But I do feel with the right circumstances (maybe not the whole inter- marriage part) that it COULD be plausible - not ASB. (Karl V inheriting Spain I regard as proof that OTL can be pretty ASBish, for instance).
 
What would you say about early Habsburg Portugal? Say Alfonso V is sterile, while his brother Ferdinand dies young and childless. OTOH their sister, Holy Roman Empress Eleanor, is more lucky and has one more surviving child-Archduke Johann lives. Could he succeede his Portuguese uncle? Or rather Maximilian, who was not yet King of the Romans, would be send to Lisbon?
 
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What would you say about early Habsburg Portugal? Say Alfonso V is sterile, while his brother Ferdinand dies young and childless. OTOH their sister, Holy Roman Empress Eleanor, is more lucky and has one more surviving child-Archduke Johann lives. Could he succeede his Portuguese uncle? Or rather Maximilian, who was not yet King of the Romans, would be send to Lisbon?
We can have Mary of Burgundy marrying Ferdinand and Isabella marrying Max in that scenario, since Mary of Burgundy might have a brother ITTL.
 
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