Pretty likely who that will happen, considering also the OTL Habsburg luck...
WI: Habsburg Holland?
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
Where is the most likely match for Rudolf's son? Hainaut? Or somewhere in Germany if Rudolf loses the election after Albrecht dies?
This is probably a stupid question, so forgive me. I decided to ask it here instead of in a new thread because it felt relevant.
Is it possible for an emperor (Albrecht in this case) to ensure the election of his son (Rudolf) as heir (king of the Romans) but then when the emperor dies, instead of choosing the KING OF THE ROMANS they elect someone else?
@The Professor @isabella @Zulfurium
Is it possible for an emperor (Albrecht in this case) to ensure the election of his son (Rudolf) as heir (king of the Romans) but then when the emperor dies, instead of choosing the KING OF THE ROMANS they elect someone else?
@The Professor @isabella @Zulfurium
Absolutely not. The King of the Romans became Emperor either after the death of his predecessor of after his coronation by the Pope (depending from the time). If you have an elected King of the Romans nobody else can become Holy Roman Emperor. Imperial elections are either for the Holy Roman Emperor or for the King of the Romans but you will be elected only one time...
Wenzel of Luxemburg, King of Bohemia, might like a word, the guy was elected as king of the Romans, but Rupprecht of the Palatinate was elected in 1400, during Wenzel's own lifetime. This is partially why I'm as confused as I am.
Yeah.
There is deposition process though that needs to be held by the Electors where they have to show he's not following his duties. Even then they need both political and papal backing to make it stick.
Fair enough.
Can we assume that Rudolf will be able to become Emperor Rudolf II after his dad's death? Or will OTL Ludwig IV still get a look in?
Can we assume that Rudolf will be able to become Emperor Rudolf II after his dad's death? Or will OTL Ludwig IV still get a look in?
The archbishop of Mainz was very anti-Albrecht, and blocked/contested the election of Friedrich I der Schöne in 1315, so could he make things equally difficult for Rudolf here?
Was just thinking of the alterations this could bring in, provided little else changes (in the Netherlands) for awhile.
Edward III was originally betrothed to Marguerite d'Hainaut (oldest sister of his OTL wife) but forced to drop his interest to Philippa because the emperor was interested in Margot.
If Rudolf manages to be elected emperor instead of Ludo, I could see Rudi wanting Margot for his (second) son. Whether the Hainauters will agree to the match is another story entirely, since, after all, Rudi DID cheat them out of their rightful inheritance.
However, without his father inheriting Holland, OTL Willem IV of Hainaut is likely NOT killed in battle against the Frisians (I know Henry Bolingbroke went on Crusade to Lithuania, but not sure if Wim will go to Frisia without being the count of Holland). Which could see the house of Avesnes continuing. Hainaut-Brabant are likely joined in the person of Wim's son by Johanna (provided that a) none of Johanna's brothers survive and b) Rudi doesn't snap her up for a son or grandson).
@Parma @pompejus
Edward III was originally betrothed to Marguerite d'Hainaut (oldest sister of his OTL wife) but forced to drop his interest to Philippa because the emperor was interested in Margot.
If Rudolf manages to be elected emperor instead of Ludo, I could see Rudi wanting Margot for his (second) son. Whether the Hainauters will agree to the match is another story entirely, since, after all, Rudi DID cheat them out of their rightful inheritance.
However, without his father inheriting Holland, OTL Willem IV of Hainaut is likely NOT killed in battle against the Frisians (I know Henry Bolingbroke went on Crusade to Lithuania, but not sure if Wim will go to Frisia without being the count of Holland). Which could see the house of Avesnes continuing. Hainaut-Brabant are likely joined in the person of Wim's son by Johanna (provided that a) none of Johanna's brothers survive and b) Rudi doesn't snap her up for a son or grandson).
@Parma @pompejus
Thomas1195
Banned
Wealth from Habsburg Netherlands would have been siphoned away to fund Habsburg-Ottoman Wars instead of being invested in trade and colonial networks by the Dutch IOTL.
Another (less) interesting ramification of this could be that Blanche de France's betrothal to the margrave of Namur (which OTL was broken for her to marry Rudolf) gets honoured. I, for one, don't see her half-brother offering her to England if her sister is ALREADY there.
Now, Blanche, if she follows her OTL route of dying in childbed with her first child, doesn't change much. Since Jean I of Namur's first wife, Marguerite de Clermont, did the same. However, should Blanche be HARDIER than Marguerite (I see no reason why not), and survive and have surviving issue, then that would throw a spoke in the wheel of Jean I's OTL second marriage, to Marie d'Artois, Dame de Mérode.
Jean and Marie's kids included a queen of Sweden and the first Electress Palatine, not to mention FOUR margraves of Namur. The last of which's son sold the margraviate to Burgundy.
Now, Blanche, if she follows her OTL route of dying in childbed with her first child, doesn't change much. Since Jean I of Namur's first wife, Marguerite de Clermont, did the same. However, should Blanche be HARDIER than Marguerite (I see no reason why not), and survive and have surviving issue, then that would throw a spoke in the wheel of Jean I's OTL second marriage, to Marie d'Artois, Dame de Mérode.
Jean and Marie's kids included a queen of Sweden and the first Electress Palatine, not to mention FOUR margraves of Namur. The last of which's son sold the margraviate to Burgundy.
Well would not be Blanche, who was the elder sister, the one married in England instead of Marguerite?
AFAIK Marguerite was the older one (born in either 1277/1283) while Blanche was younger (born in 1278/1285). Although I'm going off Guillaume de Nangis' order where he lists
Originally Edward wanted (the more beautiful) Blanche but there was a mix-up of sorts (AIUI) that led to Marguerite winding up married to Edward instead.
Something else I was wondering is how a Habsburg Holland would affect the course of the Franco-Flemish War of 1297-1305.
OTL, Philippe le Bel was allied to the comte d'Hainaut (who was also count of Holland) and whose lands bordered on Flanders. Philippe was ALSO allied to the Habsburgs. However, Rudolf, as count of Holland and married to Elizabeth of Rhuddlan has a reason to get involved to prevent Philippe from incorporating Flanders into France. An English alliance through Liz is great and all, but why I say Rudolf will likely get involved on the Flemish side is because if Philippe takes Flanders would there be to stop Philippe deciding to take Holland as well? More than that, Hainaut (which has the best claim to Holland) is allied to France, so even if Philippe DOESN'T take it into his head to go after Holland, he MIGHT back rebels against Rudolf's rule.
OTL, Philippe le Bel was allied to the comte d'Hainaut (who was also count of Holland) and whose lands bordered on Flanders. Philippe was ALSO allied to the Habsburgs. However, Rudolf, as count of Holland and married to Elizabeth of Rhuddlan has a reason to get involved to prevent Philippe from incorporating Flanders into France. An English alliance through Liz is great and all, but why I say Rudolf will likely get involved on the Flemish side is because if Philippe takes Flanders would there be to stop Philippe deciding to take Holland as well? More than that, Hainaut (which has the best claim to Holland) is allied to France, so even if Philippe DOESN'T take it into his head to go after Holland, he MIGHT back rebels against Rudolf's rule.
My impression is that Flanders was "part of France" in the same way that Brittany was. i.e. that the French kings technically ruled it in theory, but not so much in practice.
Flanders was more a part than Brittany. While the Breton Duke merely paid homage to the King of West Francia, the lands of Flanders were explicitly included in West Francia.
Oops. My bad then.
So...let's rephrase then, how would a Habsburg ruled Holland, allied with England, affect the outcome of the Franco-Flemish War? OTL the English apparently had to pull a lot of men because of some "minor" trouble in Scotland,. I don't say Holland would be able to supply enough men to make up the difference, but Albrecht of Habsburg was tenuously allied with the king of France at the time. Would Albrecht still side with the French against his own son?
Keep count of the direct consequences of what we have already established: in OTL Albrecht was tied to France by his son‘s wedding but here Rudolf is married to Elizabeth of England and his father has no reason for allying to France against him