WI: Habsburg Austria Survives WWI?

What would have been the impact on Austria if the Habsburg Monarchy had managed to survive the First World War in Austria? Would a very anti-Nazi Emperor Otto Von Habsburg been a rallying figure for Austrian anti-Nazis? Might Austria have actually put up on organized resistance to German annexation? In the event of a 1938 Austro-German War how would Germany fair and would France and Britain try and help the Austrian Empire?
 
I imagine you still have the problems facing Austria post WW1 and the Heimwehr might be able to gain a better footing. The Heimatblock may gain more power s a result and we could see a relatively independent Austria under Italian influence remaining independent of Germany. As a result, Germany collapse into a depression in 1939, WW2 is avoided and all that good stuff. Then again, here is the real question. How in the world, are the Habsburgs going to be allowed to retain their position following WW1?
 

libbrit

Banned
What would have been the impact on Austria if the Habsburg Monarchy had managed to survive the First World War in Austria? Would a very anti-Nazi Emperor Otto Von Habsburg been a rallying figure for Austrian anti-Nazis? Might Austria have actually put up on organized resistance to German annexation? In the event of a 1938 Austro-German War how would Germany fair and would France and Britain try and help the Austrian Empire?

France is no doubt delighted as it has a much larger and potentially stronger ally to cause real problems with Germanys southern border.

Retaining a Habsburg on the throne will cause certain problems and possibly exacerbate the north-south religious divide in Germany (many southern Germans, lets not forget,had in a single persons life time until 1938 (not even 70 years since German unification), felt more affinity to Austria than the Prussian led German state).

If it had led to war, well, Germany was very unprepared for war at the time-infact i remember the sight of Germans entering the Rhineland on horseback not to long before then, so they really would have struggled to sustain the kind of war they did in 1939 (even then they were not as well prepared as you might think), so perhaps a more static war, perhaps without the fall of France.
 
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libbrit

Banned
Then again, here is the real question. How in the world, are the Habsburgs going to be allowed to retain their position following WW1?

it doesnt even have to be a Habsburg empire, just a Habsburg Austria where the empire falls apart to a degree, but Austria retains the monarchy, and perhaps there are a few people with foresight in the peace negotiations, not to take quite so much land and population of Austria proper
 
it doesnt even have to be a Habsburg empire, just a Habsburg Austria where the empire falls apart to a degree, but Austria retains the monarchy, and perhaps there are a few people with foresight in the peace negotiations, not to take quite so much land and population of Austria proper

Thats what I was talking about. Austria isn't going to get any of the territory they wanted but didn't get in OTL.
 
In the event of a 1938 Austro-German War how would Germany fair and would France and Britain try and help the Austrian Empire?
Depending on how, if any, a Habsburg Austria rejigs things Italy could be a major ally rather than France or Great Britain if Germany starts looking at anschluss. IIRC Mussolini was never really all that in favour of the whole idea but had to acquiesce in return for German support over Abyssinia, and at the time was fairly decent militarily whilst as libbrit mentioned Germany was still pretty weak, so unlike later the balance of power is much more even. If you can find some way to get rid of the quid pro quo or just have Mussolini go back on his half of the deal then you could get your war, and if it bogs down we might also see Poland and France look at intervening to help keep Germany down.
 

libbrit

Banned
Thats what I was talking about. Austria isn't going to get any of the territory they wanted but didn't get in OTL.

Im not so sure-look at this map of the ethnic division of Austria Hungary in 1910.

271581928_ad7c4b2e15.jpg


If when deciding on what territory to take off Austria, the negotiators had been even slightly more common sense and applied the same self determination rules to ethnic germans as they did to everyone else, you could well have a post war austria that was something vaguely resembling a combination of OTL Austria and The Czeck Republic,perhaps rather oddly in a semi confederal system with a newly created `kingdom of Bohemia` similar to the pre war settlement between Austria and Hungary within the imperial sysatem, because of the difficulty transferring the Sudentenland germans, but also the rediculous borders that a full scale annexation of the Sudentenland to Austria would result in, which means a much larger Austrian state with which to trouble Germany in the event of resistance to unification with Germany
 
No Im not saying that the Treaty of Versailles and its related treaties were not idiotically put together, but following WW1, Czechoslovakia will be formed and will gain the Sudetenland. If the Habsburgs are given Austria, they will certainly change Austrian politics but I highly doubt that the Czechs will allow the Austrians to take the Sudetenland, and considering how the Czechs have the largest force, they will win the short war between themselves and the Austrians.
 
it doesnt even have to be a Habsburg empire, just a Habsburg Austria where the empire falls apart to a degree, but Austria retains the monarchy, and perhaps there are a few people with foresight in the peace negotiations, not to take quite so much land and population of Austria proper

This reminds me of an excellent timeline that has been dead for around 3 years now but still remains entertaining, believable, and readable!
 

Cook

Banned
Thats what I was talking about. Austria isn't going to get any of the territory they wanted but didn't get in OTL.
That does not preclude a Habsburg constitutional monarch of an Austria with an elected parliamentary government. Such a set up could have been seen as stabilising force to counter the threat of the communists that had taken over neighbouring Hungary. I doubt it would have made much difference though, beyond making Otto a target for Nazi assassination.
 
That does not preclude a Habsburg constitutional monarch of an Austria with an elected parliamentary government. Such a set up could have been seen as stabilising force to counter the threat of the communists that had taken over neighbouring Hungary. I doubt it would have made much difference though, beyond making Otto a target for Nazi assassination.

a too small austria runs into the same problem as otl - the own population reject it. kaiser, king or despotic dictoator, it doesnt matter, the new constitution will begin with "austria is a state of germany".
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
a too small austria runs into the same problem as otl - the own population reject it. kaiser, king or despotic dictoator, it doesnt matter, the new constitution will begin with "austria is a state of germany".
Not so sure about that. It was the exit of the Habsburgs that made the Austrians think there's no more need of an Austrian nation, and they should become part of Germany. Of course I think much will depend on how stable Germany is, and if they feel the new Austrian government is better than the old. Liberals and Socialists would both be very suspicious about Otto at least at first. A Habsburgs that allow democracy would almost seem like an oxymoron.
 

scholar

Banned
a too small austria runs into the same problem as otl - the own population reject it. kaiser, king or despotic dictoator, it doesnt matter, the new constitution will begin with "austria is a state of germany".
This is a predestination argument, when in reality it wasn't really anything of the sort. Any number of different events in the course of Austria's history during the first World War could have resulted in the Monarchy remaining in power. Further, as far as I'm aware, the population of Austria never had a say in whether or not the monarchy was dissolved, only minor revolutionary groups in the capital and foreign government impositions.
 
This reminds me of an excellent timeline that has been dead for around 3 years now but still remains entertaining, believable, and readable!

Just a little too much italian bashing for my taste obviusly, and regarding being believable it's a strecht...but nevertheless
 
You know, I would think that Imperial Vienna (the person who wrote that timeline in the first place) would had commented on an thread about the habsburgs keeping Austria.
 
Dont forget that Otto Habsburg might isnt the emperor during the timr when nazi germany gets formed. Emperor Karl only died because he caught a cold, which progressed into pneumonia and later he died because of a respiratory failture. If the habsburg are allowed to stay in Austria, this would not happen. But i am pretty sure that Emperor Karl would also be against Hitler.
 

Cook

Banned
Dont forget that Otto Habsburg might isnt the emperor during the timr when nazi germany gets formed.
Karl abdicated on November 11, 1918 unprompted by the Entente. His reign during the war would have made him unpopular in Paris anyway, probably requiring his abdication in favour of Otto.

...the new constitution will begin with "austria is a state of germany".
That is one thing it certainly would not have had. The Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye specifically forbade union with Germany.

The treaty also forbade Austria from building or acquiring submarines!
 
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Habsburg Austria would need the support or at least acceptance by the Austrian population, the Austrian leadership, and most of Austria's neighbour if you want it to last.

A Habsburgs that allow democracy would almost seem like an oxymoron.

Not at all. Pre-war Austria was a constitutional monarchy with male universal suffrage.

This reminds me of an excellent timeline that has been dead for around 3 years now but still remains entertaining, believable, and readable!

The restoration of Habsburg Austria in EdT's A Greater Britain is more credible.
 
The treaty also forbade Austria from building or acquiring submarines!
To protect freedom of navigation along the Danube, obviously! :p

More seriously, the Austrians had owned a navy that included submarines -- based at ports in Istria and Dalmatia -- before & during WW1, and this clause was presumably intended to prevent them doing so again if they somehow regained sufficient access to a seaport.


Incidentally, the Austrian officer Georg Ludwig von Trapp -- of 'Sound of Music' fame -- had been a submarine commander during WW1... and was allegedly offered a commission in the German navy at some point before the Anschlusss...
 
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