WI: Gustav Adolphus the Great of Sweden leads Protestants to Victory in 30 Years War?

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Since we're talking about the protector of the Protestants in Germany, assuming that Prussia can't do it, would Saxony be the one to do it instead?
 

von Adler

Brandenbrug and Saxony are decent-sized electors, but not very powerful compared to the others that were rampaging through Germany at this time - neither was able to prevent an army from entering their territory. Prussia is a Polish vassal at the time and not even in the Holy Roman Empire.

If Gustav II Adolf survives, he will (probably) declare himself protestant Emperor (not Holy Roman Emperor) and protector of all protestants. He will attack Denmark and seriously weaken them, but annexing electors is beyon dstupid and he will not try it. He will be content with a few good ports or river mouths that bring in tolling income (like Bremen and Wismar) and one or two good ports to operate on the continent from (like Stralsund). He might go for a bit more than what Sweden got 1648, but not much more.

In this scenario, Denmark is in for a lot of hurt, and would not be strong enough to annex Brandenburg.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
So in this case, it would fall on Saxony to actually annex Brandenburg since they're the closest, right? So how can Prussia get out of Poland's orbit?
 

von Adler

Brandenburg, if it remains independent, will inherit Prussia soon enough and can wrestle it from Polish vassalage, especially when Polish stagnation hits, and especially if the Swedes still create the great deluge in Poland.

Why would you want Brandenburg annexed, by the way?
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
von Adler said:
Brandenburg, if it remains independent, will inherit Prussia soon enough and can wrestle it from Polish vassalage, especially when Polish stagnation hits, and especially if the Swedes still create the great deluge in Poland.

Why would you want Brandenburg annexed, by the way?
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Wasn't Brandenburg a critical puzzle in who gets to become the dominant power to unite the German lands?
 

von Adler

No, not until Friedrich der Große (although one could argue that it started with the Great Elector Friedrich Wilhelm). Brandenburg as a dominant German power was far-fetched in the mid-1600s.

Brandenburg became a critical player because of luck, good cicumstances, inheriting Prussia and a string of very good Electors (and later Kings), not because it had large territory, high population or wealth. In fact, Brandenburg was poor from the start and ravaged by the 30 years' war.
 

OS fan

Banned
I wonder what Frederick Wilhelm, the Great Elector (who reigned in Prussia since 1640) would do if Sweden annexed his country.

Also, "Gars" might decide to annex Bohemia too. Let us not forget that Protestantism was not too weak there before they were suppressed.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Well I did ask a question on another thread on what if Sweden and Prussia formed a political union. Needless to say, Frederick Wilhelm marrying Kristina of Sweden in 1642 would have been realistic.
 

von Adler

Kristina did not want to marry. And after Gustav II Adolf died, there was no-one that could force her.

The Swedes would not accept someone who would not move to Sweden and spend all time there - especially if that someone is from a nation with serfdom.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
In that case, Gustav Adolf would certainly have a hard time if he wants to proclaim himself a Protestant Emperor due to the fact that most of the Protestant German lands that have serfdom.
 

von Adler

Sigh. How many times must I say this. Protestant Emperor. Of Sweden, Finland and Denmark north of the Sound. It means that he is the protector of protestant states and their natural leader against any catholic agression - not that he will annex them, replace their rulers or suddently adapt their serfdom for Sweden (how you got that idea, I don't know).

Gustav Adolf's Empire will be like the Holy Roman one after 1648 - the Emperor was the protector of the Empire, but all states had the right to conduct their own politics, including religios and foreign such. And Brandenburg, Saxony, Lübeck and the other protestant German states would do the same under a protestand Emperor.
 

Elfwine

Von Alder said:
First of all, Sweden was way ahead of all European countries in usings its resources effectively - the bureaucracy was way better, as was census, tax collection, army administration and supply - Sweden did make gold from straw, considering the times. And Oxenstierna was a part of this well-oiled machine.
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True. But this couldn't go on indefinitely - Gars is going to be supported to the utmost thanks to said machine and the chancellor, but if Gustavus tries some of the more lofty fantasies here, I can see Oxtensteirna giving him a "Your Majesty, with all due respect." lecture on the limits of what Sweden's bureaucracy has to extract.

Still, it's a very firm foundation to accomplish what Gars seems to have actually intended. Especially with German contributions (voluntary and, um, encouraged).

On the Emperorship:
So basically a matter of prestige and precedence, in political terms. Power mostly as it relates to being able to claim being the leader of this coalition in case it has demands, rather than power for Sweden directly.
 

ilikesushi

Alright, i really like where this thread is going... Alright so, revision of what popular consensus is on what is most likely to happen.
-Protestant lands in Germany fall under the sway of Gustav and Sweden, in the form of a Protestant 'HRE' in which Sweden is protector, but states within the 'Empire' have much autonomy.
--Question here is, what would be the limits of this 'Empire'? Brandenburg, the batlic coast, and what is Hannover today is undisputed, but what of Bohemia, Saxony, and maybe even Hesse and Thuringia? And what about the level of integration this 'Empire' would have? Name?
-Yes Sweden would then annex parts Denmark, but what of the rest? Direct vassalage? Or perhaps it becomes part of the 'Empire'.
-France becomes ally with Sweden, but for how long? I think until Sweden becomes more of a threat then the Hapsburgs personally.
-Speaking of which, what would be the terms imposed on Austria?
-And Brandenburg is due to inherit Prussia soon. Would Sweden lend support to Brandenburg and face off with Poland once again? Or maybe try to take the rich port of Konigsburg for themselves, giving them almost full control of the Baltic.
-What of Gustav's potential heirs? He was only 38 at the time, and had plenty of time to raise a male heir.
-And say this empire does not fall apart, Sweden did found a colony in what is now Delaware, do you guys think that this new Empire may try to create a colonial empire?
 

Elfwine

Sweden doesn't have the surplus population for much to go overseas to the Americas.


We're talking about a country with a population less than two million at this point.
 

OS fan

Banned
Portugal conquered an empire on three continents and had barely one million people. Of course, their empire cost them thousands of their best men.
 

imperialaquila

Elfwine said:
Sweden doesn't have the surplus population for much to go overseas to the Americas.


We're talking about a country with a population less than two million at this point.
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The colonists don't have to be Swedish; I'm sure there will be Germans who want land in the Americas and would jump at the chance to immigrate to the Americas.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Like potential Protestant refugees who are fleeing from their war torn lands. I mean, you could even have Estonians migrating to the Americas as well as Swedes and Finns.
 
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