WI Gunpowder is developed in the 3rd century BC in rome

Ah but wait. Gunpowder makes it harder for nomads to wreck havoc. As you can have cheap troops stand them off with firepower. Would really change how the Huns and the such were effectiveness wise


Weren't most Hunnish soldiers infantry - much of it drawn from Germanic vassals?

In any case, cavalry remained effective well into the age of gunpowder. It took the development of the machine-gun in the late 19C to really scupper them.

The real advantage of firearms over other weapons was the relative ease with which your men could be taught to use them. Medieval England had to make it compulsory for people to practise archery every weekend, because it took a lot of learning. No need for that with muskets. But this of course would help the Germans just as much as the Romans. It would also help peasant rebels and make civil war battles that much bloodier.
 
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Kaze

Banned
Empire does not last... it falls apart in civil war just like IRL. The problem with Rome was not the external threat of the barbarians but the internal threat of a general getting an idea, economic, religious, and social = you would need to solve these items in order to save the Roman empire.
 
Why is everyone talking about the Empire. The POD is considerably earlier than it.

Everyone seems to take it for granted that the Republic will conquer the Mediterranean, and the institutional weaknesses of the Republic from OTL will make the rise of the empire inevitable once that happens
 

elkarlo

Banned
Weren't most Hunnish soldiers infantry - much of it drawn from Germanic vassals?

In any case, cavalry remained effective well into the age of gunpowder. It took the development of the machine-gun in the late 19C to really scupper them.

The real advantage of firearms over other weapons was the relative ease with which your men could be taught to use them. Medieval England had to make it compulsory for people to practise archery every weekend, because it took a lot of learning. No need for that with muskets. But this of course would help the Germans just as much as the Romans. It would also help peasant rebels and make civil war battles that much bloodier.
Not at first Huns were basically mongols at first. I think they were still heavily cav , and had conquered Germans in their ranks .
Cav was important til the US civil war. But gunpowder changed the balance for steppe nomads. One ghe Russians had it, they went on the offensive and tell nomads just couldn't stop them. The tables were turned
 
Not at first Huns were basically mongols at first. I think they were still heavily cav , and had conquered Germans in their ranks .
Cav was important til the US civil war. But gunpowder changed the balance for steppe nomads. One ghe Russians had it, they went on the offensive and tell nomads just couldn't stop them. The tables were turned

But of course the Huns were not trying to rule he RE as the Mongols ruled (most of) Russia. They simply plundered it. There centre of power was deep in Barbarian Europe where the Romans (with or without gunpowder) could not pursue them.

And the Huns' German auxiliaries were not steppe nomads. Their population density was a lot higher.
 
But of course the Huns were not trying to rule he RE as the Mongols ruled (most of) Russia. They simply plundered it. There centre of power was deep in Barbarian Europe where the Romans (with or without gunpowder) could not pursue them.

And the Huns' German auxiliaries were not steppe nomads. Their population density was a lot higher.

Why would the East Goths even submit to the Huns in this time line? The ostro-goths have a higher pop density, a more advanced system of government and are more urbanized than them. OTL the reason why the Huns were able to conquer the more nurmous East Germans was cause of their light cavalry but light cavalry can't stand up to an infatry firing line.

Chances are that the Huns are butterflied in alt.
 
Why would the East Goths even submit to the Huns in this time line? The ostro-goths have a higher pop density, a more advanced system of government and are more urbanized than them. OTL the reason why the Huns were able to conquer the more nurmous East Germans was cause of their light cavalry but light cavalry can't stand up to an infatry firing line.

Chances are that the Huns are butterflied in alt.

Not that this helps the Romans any. The Goths were giving trouble over a century before the Huns came along, and these Goths will have gunpowder weapons.
 
Not that this helps the Romans any. The Goths were giving trouble over a century before the Huns came along, and these Goths will have gunpowder weapons.

In OTL, gunpowder was the reason settled civilizations finally gained an advantage over their barbarian neighbors. Before gunpowder, the military balance is in a see saw, with civilized societies having difficulty beating their less civilized neighbors, and in fact, they lost more often than not. After gunpowder, the balance swung decisively the other way, despite some exceptions. The best exception, of course, is the Manchu conquest of the Ming. But that was an outlier, and an exception to the rule.

In OTL, nomads and barbarians, after the 1600s, with a few exceptions, were not able to compete with civilized urban societies in warfare.

So why would Rome and its northern neighbors be any different?

Why would the Germanic tribes have gunpowder weapons? Gunpowder societies needed a civilized urban society to sustain such an army.That is why I think that gunpowder weapons would be a gamechanger. I simply cannot imagine that the GErmans north of the Danube or east of the Rhine can set up a society that could manufacture huge amounts of gunpowder, muskets, bullets, cannon, cannon balls, artillery, etc. unless they fundamentally changed their societies, which would make them even easier to conquer for the Romans.


I mean, can you tell me a nomadic society in OTL, from its own internal sources, that were able to create a manufacture and create gunpowder weapons in sufficient quantities to beat a settle, civilized, gunpowder empire larger than itself many times over?

The reasons the Germans in OTL can defeat Rome is because the weapons of the Romans and the Germans are of comparable technology. Swords, bows, shields, and arrows are relatively easy to manufacture in comparison with cannons, muskets, gunpowder, etc. If the Germans want to manufacture these things in quantity, then they have to develop urban centers.

Yet that would mean that the Romans would have something to capture in their wars against them, like how the Romans used the fact the Gauls have oppidums and other fixed settled places to be able to conquer it, etc. It was argued that the reason Germania was so hard to conquer was that there were no fixed places to capture and occupy. Now, with gunpowder, the Germans would need to create such fixed settlements in order to manufacture gunpowder, etc.
 
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But gunpowder changed the balance for steppe nomads. One ghe Russians had it, they went on the offensive and tell nomads just couldn't stop them. The tables were turned

As I understand it, the Russian Empire expanded across territory of Siberia relatively quickly in 16th-17th century. These are areas where people lived at low population density, not much contact with other powers to the south, dependent on mix of hunting and gathering as well as using some herding.

But about the steppe territory and Central Asian territory where the nomadic empires tended to originate, less so, until the 19th century.

Chalking up all the successes of expansion to firearms tends to suggest that all the other technology (including new agricultural systems, mining economies that made some of expansion viable, and the stability of the state, bureaucracies using new information technologies to organise, the compass, eventually powered transport and so on), did not matter. That doesn't seem likely to me, and the Roman would not necessarily have any of that all, just by having early firearms.
 

elkarlo

Banned
As I understand it, the Russian Empire expanded across territory of Siberia relatively quickly in 16th-17th century. These are areas where people lived at low population density, not much contact with other powers to the south, dependent on mix of hunting and gathering as well as using some herding.

But about the steppe territory and Central Asian territory where the nomadic empires tended to originate, less so, until the 19th century.

Chalking up all the successes of expansion to firearms tends to suggest that all the other technology (including new agricultural systems, mining economies that made some of expansion viable, and the stability of the state, bureaucracies using new information technologies to organise, the compass, eventually powered transport and so on), did not matter. That doesn't seem likely to me, and the Roman would not necessarily have any of that all, just by having early firearms.
True, the Russians got good at fighting the nomads, and then gunpowder allowed them to beat them much more decisively. The did beat a lot of low pop areas, but also defeated the remnants of the Blue IIRC horde.

I do think it would make it harder to win using a horde if gunpowder was invented. Just as muskets make it easy to hold off archer cav, and makes it expensive to replace them.

The
 
Why would the Germanic tribes have gunpowder weapons? Gunpowder societies needed a civilized urban society to sustain such an army.That is why I think that gunpowder weapons would be a gamechanger. I simply cannot imagine that the GErmans north of the Danube or east of the Rhine can set up a society that could manufacture huge amounts of gunpowder, muskets, bullets, cannon, cannon balls, artillery, etc. unless they fundamentally changed their societies, which would make them even easier to conquer for the Romans.


Why not? The Huns had siege engines capable of knocking down the walls of Orleans. If they could make/obtain those, why not gunpowder weapons also?

Incidentally, the post to which I was responding argued that such weapons would prevent the Huns from conquering the Ostrogoths, which clearly assumes that the Ostrogoths at least would possess them.


I mean, can you tell me a nomadic society in OTL, from its own internal sources, that were able to create a manufacture and create gunpowder weapons in sufficient quantities to beat a settle, civilized, gunpowder empire larger than itself many times over?

The Germanic barbarians were not nomadic except when forced into it by circumstances. Whenever they got the chance they quickly reverted to a settled way of life. Thus after their eviction from Ukraine the Ostrogoths stayed on the Middle Danube for about 100 years before conquering Italy, and even then retained quite a bit of their Danubian land. The Visigoths wandered a bit more, but were also happy enough to sit still once granted land in Acquitania. And the fact that Aetius needed Visigothic and Frankish allies against Attila doesn't suggest an overwhelming numerical superiority on the Romans' part.

BTW, in the 18C the Indians had gunpowder, and outnumbered Clive''s Europeans by a big margin, yet that didn't stop Clive winning. Gunpowder was useful but not necessary decisive.



I mean, can you tell me a nomadic society in OTL, from its own internal sources, that were able to create a manufacture and create gunpowder weapons in sufficient quantities to beat a settle, civilized, gunpowder empire larger than itself many times over?[/QUOTE]
 
BTW, in the 18C the Indians had gunpowder, and outnumbered Clive''s Europeans by a big margin, yet that didn't stop Clive winning. Gunpowder was useful but not necessary decisive.

Yep, the American Indians also had guns and went down to the Whiteman.

Gunpowder armies are in technological and military organisation race. It is not just that we both have gunpowder that makes us equal. I may have better guns and/or better military generalship and organisation. The other issue is money. If I have more money, I can make more guns and put larger armies out.


I mean, can you tell me a nomadic society in OTL, from its own internal sources, that were able to create a manufacture and create gunpowder weapons in sufficient quantities to beat a settle, civilized, gunpowder empire larger than itself many times over?

I cannot think of one. Because they require less training, a settled, civilized gunpowder army can put together a very large force.
 
Tbh, I love the idea of the Romans being able to mine and quarry more aggressively - counter-intuitively it both makes sappers more effective, but allows the Romans to fortify more easily as they'll have more labour-efficient quarries.

It also gives the Romans interesting options on the defensive. There are Venetian Shells that are entirely within the technological realm of possibility for the Romans if they have gunpowder - hell, Ballista can easily carry explosives quite a distance to fulfil similar anti-personnel roles.

Basically, scary boomtimes have plenty of practical uses, even with limited metallurgy. Just don't expect more than wooden cannons.
 
If you have somebody who knows the design, all you need to make functional catapults are axes and other woodworking tools, some rope, and a bunch of trees and some iron to make some key parts - all of which the German tribes had. In many instances armies using catapults of various designs made them locally with only some key metal bits "imported". You can't do that with gunpowder weapons. You need powder mills to make the powder, and even if you are just making pottery grenades you need an "assembly ;line" to make the grenades, fill them, seal them and fuse them. Not something you do on the march. For anything more advanced than that, you need a serious industrial base, casting bronze weapons does not happen in a field portable forge.
 
If you have somebody who knows the design, all you need to make functional catapults are axes and other woodworking tools, some rope, and a bunch of trees and some iron to make some key parts - all of which the German tribes had. In many instances armies using catapults of various designs made them locally with only some key metal bits "imported". You can't do that with gunpowder weapons. You need powder mills to make the powder, and even if you are just making pottery grenades you need an "assembly ;line" to make the grenades, fill them, seal them and fuse them. Not something you do on the march. For anything more advanced than that, you need a serious industrial base, casting bronze weapons does not happen in a field portable forge.


How do you mean "on the march"? The Huns ruled Southern Russia for eighty years and most of Germany for a generation. Other tribes also remained settled for extended periods.

Incidentally, if gunpowder was discovered in the 3rd century BC, by the late Roman period all these barbarians (and others) have had over five hundred years to get the hang of it. They may well be more advanced than OTL, at ;east in that particular field.
 
Yet that would mean that the Romans would have something to capture in their wars against them, like how the Romans used the fact the Gauls have oppidums and other fixed settled places to be able to conquer it, etc. It was argued that the reason Germania was so hard to conquer was that there were no fixed places to capture and occupy. Now, with gunpowder, the Germans would need to create such fixed settlements in order to manufacture gunpowder, etc.

By the time the Goths were causing problems for Rome, they already had fixed settlements. The early Romans didn't conquer Germania because there wasn't any existing infrastructure and thus the conquest would be too costly. But the late Romans didn't conquer Germania because by that time, the Germans had adopted technology, institutions, industries, and other markers of "civilization" from the Romans, and by the time the Romans noticed it as a threat, it was functionally too late to do anything about it. So the point that "Goths can't get guns cause they don't have cities" is patently false. And this isn't even mentioning the Franks, Alemanni, Marcomanni, Vandals, Thuringi, etc. Any number of these gaining the capacity to produce such weapons would functionally give all of them access to them through commerce
 
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