WI: Gunpowder invented in Athens during the Golden Age of Classical Greece

What if that happened, as gunpowder discovery in china is just luck, and they fell behind and did not have much enthusiasm due to lack of external enemies that have the characteristics to use that kind of weapons. But what if, it got discovered much earlier in Greece. How would it affect warfare, and History of the world. When would the muskets be invented/ widespread, cannons? and more? Hwatcha. And more. I imagine hwatchas getting used in wars, where hoplight tactics of close formation. will get rekt as the Hwatchas fires its arrows to them
 
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If you apply Carl Sagan's dedication to ancient Greek culture, you can start an ATL that butterflies away the dark ages and allows Mediterranean culture to flourish. We must, though, remember the time lag between Marco Polo's return and the first actual muskets.
 
What if that happened, as gunpowder discovery in china is just luck, and they fell behind and did not have much enthusiasm due to lack of external enemies that have the characteristics to use that kind of weapons. But what if, it got discovered much earlier in Greece. How would it affect warfare, and History of the world. When would the muskets be invented/ widespread, cannons? and more? Hwatcha. And more. I imagine hwatchas getting used in wars, where hoplight tactics of close formation. will get rekt as the Hwatchas fires its arrows to them
Wasn't it discovered anyway as Greek Fire? Unless I'm getting mistaken as my only knowledge on Greek Fire is Assasins Creed. If I'm completely wrong and thread diverting I'm sorry.
 
You've got a long way to go in metallurgical development before you get muskets. Obviously the exact time and conditions for the discovery can have tons of butterflies, but I honestly expect it to have a much bigger impact on Roman mining, engineering, and siege craft than pitched battles. Keep in mind the logistical challenges of producing and distributing large quantities of gunpowder as well. It would be fairly difficult to achieve at a city-state level.
 
Well, if we go with up to 500 years between discovery and muskets, that gives the Romans a credible chance of being the ones coming up with that particular idea, and although the Romans often lacked for creativity, they were rather good when it came to military innovation, if I remember correctly.
 
The same statement I made about the Industrial Revolution thread applies here. Getting gunpowder in Classical Greece would be almost ASB due to a myriad of factors. Even if it was discovered, it would see little widespread use and be mostly a niche weapon with limited uses, that would be lost and have to be rediscovered when there are the right economic, political, social, and technological factors enabling widespread use of gunpowder. I guess it could work for a few limited sieges, but be completely useless on the field, and there are several counters to it.
If you apply Carl Sagan's dedication to ancient Greek culture, you can start an ATL that butterflies away the dark ages and allows Mediterranean culture to flourish. We must, though, remember the time lag between Marco Polo's return and the first actual muskets.
But Carl Sagan is a scientist, not a historian, and his ideas rely on several false assumptions and widely discredited ideas, that technology works like it does in Civ games, being a clearly defined tree every people must follow, and not developing in response to various factors, and according to the civilizations' environment and prevailing conditions of the civilization. The Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations alone prove this model wrong, Tenochtitlan was able to sustain a population of 300,000 in the middle of a lake with no draft animals, the wheel, or metal tools. The Inca ruled over one of the highest mountain ranges on earth without horses, writing, or a market economy, and that's just two examples that blow this theory of technological advancement out of the window. That the "Dark Ages" was anything other than a mere paucity of sources which has now been partially rectified, and not this period of ignorance, barbarity, and superstition that no serious scholar today regards as true, but is sadly still prevalent in the popular imagination. That there's this dichtonomy between rational, civilized, and scientific Greeks, and superstitious, ignorant, and barbarous Christians/Muslims who ended Greek and Roman science, which is just wrong on so many levels, usually spouted for modern-day idiotic political reasons.
 
That the "Dark Ages" was anything other than a mere paucity of sources which has now been partially rectified, and not this period of ignorance, barbarity, and superstition that no serious scholar today regards as true, but is sadly still prevalent in the popular imagination.
Nit-pick: the term "Dark Ages" was actually coined to refer to a period of barbarity after the Roman Empire. IIRC it was invented by Petrarch, as part of his relentless PR campaign to present himself as the bestest poet evar for the last thousand years.
 
Regarding the OP, I don't think we'd see ancient muskets or canons, for the simple reason that metallurgy wasn't advanced enough to create barrels capable of withstanding the explosive force. (Which is the same reason why we wouldn't see ancient steam engines, either.) I could see gunpowder being used in sieges (undermining enemy walls would be much more effective, for example), and maybe some sort of hwatcha/rocket device as well, although probably nothing that would fundamentally revolutionise warfare.
 
Regarding the OP, I don't think we'd see ancient muskets or canons, for the simple reason that metallurgy wasn't advanced enough to create barrels capable of withstanding the explosive force
I agree that making muskets or other hand weapons with Ancient technology + gunpowder is deeply improbable at best. However, cannons (paradoxically) don't require nearly as sophisticated construction: assuming, that is, that you are willing to accept low velocity projectiles (and consequent short range). The more relevant example for ancient siege weapons is the way that bronze barrels remained common on howitzers into the late 1800s, whereas muskets were virtually always iron. The more fun example is the WW1 German mortar with a barrel made out of wood.
 
Nit-pick: the term "Dark Ages" was actually coined to refer to a period of barbarity after the Roman Empire. IIRC it was invented by Petrarch, as part of his relentless PR campaign to present himself as the bestest poet evar for the last thousand years.
Well I was referring to how scholars today interpret it, and the one that seems closer to the facts, as obviously Renaissance scholars didn’t have our modern tradition of careful historiography.
 
We actually saw them IOTL with Heron’s invention. That said, I agree it wouldn’t become more than a toy or see any useful applications within the context of the Roman Empire.

I believe I read somewhere on this sight that Heron's engine along with his treatise on pneumatics and mechanics that it wouldn't have been too asb for him to develop some kind of primitive piston.
 
Gunpowder would definitely be used for sapping walls at least. Maybe some try and use it for blasting in mines.

I imagine that even if it doesn't find very many uses it will be remembered as a curious plaything for scholars and the upper class.
 
Gunpowder took 4 centuries to be put into effective use by the ancient Chinese even though they had a very big interest in it and massive technological advancements. In Ancient Greece? Its going to be centuries before gunpowder even becomes more than a small curiosity.
 
Gunpowder took 4 centuries to be put into effective use by the ancient Chinese even though they had a very big interest in it and massive technological advancements. In Ancient Greece? Its going to be centuries before gunpowder even becomes more than a small curiosity.

Where did you pull the 4 centuries figure from? The first Chinese cannons came about into use in the 12th century. The Mongols were using gunpowder weapons to relatively great extent in the 13th century.
 
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