WI: Greek Fire never lost?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
  • Start date
Still trying to find some decent contemporary reports of what Dupre actually had. Problem is , lots and lots of people came up with a formula for another "burny stuff we can throw over enemies" , and excitedly called it "Greek Fire".

The original Greek Fire does seem to have had an extra something that really rattled people, the way just "burny stuff" wouldn't have. Whether Dupre actually re-discovered that, not so sure.

There doesn't seem much contemporary mention of it, apparently he demonstrated *something* to some senior nobles. They reported to the King, who yawned and chucked the formula into the fire, unread. That's about as far as contemporary reporting goes. Lots and lots of later writers all copying one another, "M. Dupre re-discovered Greek Fire" .

The OP , though, was Greek Fire never lost.
 
it was used as a bleaching agent, urine is what made the roman toga white.

there are quite a few uses for actually.
i just read up on napalm compounds, naphtenic acid and palmitic acid.
the first is found in crude oil, the second in palm oil and tallow. Both would be available for the byzantines.

on the other hand the used thickening agent might be from a plant, something that has similar properties to latex

Byzantines would have had access to petroleum deposits, so almost any hydrocarbon is possible.

Contemporary reports speak of resins, and the mixture being heated. Which makes sense for the ship siphon gadget, except that doesn't work so well for the grenade bit.
 
calcine bone ash with charcoal and voila, calcium phosphide, add some sand and you have phosphorus.

tar would work to thicken petroleum, sulfur could be added to make it nastier for anyone caught downwind.

Vinegar would decompose calcium phosphide on contact, causing an instant release of phosphine instead of a slower one.
 
interestingly it seems to me that some high naphtha oils can get high levels of naphthenic acid due to oxidation. So this specific kind of oil would only need the counterpart (palmitic acid) to be added to get the sticky effect of napalm. this would explain why it was difficult to get & why it got lost, maybe specific oil wells? or other source. resin would make the sticky effect only worse.
 
But would not such a rapid release of phosphine , which spontaneous combusts (as well as being poisonous as hell), cause the fire to flare up, rather than being extinguished? Reports seem fairly clear that strong vinegar extinguished the flame, water made it burn harder.

Another possible issue with phosphine , is that burning phosphine produces dense clouds of white phosphorus pentoxide smoke. That fits with statements about Greek Fire making a lot of smoke (though that could be just due to pitch). But, phosphorus pentoxide is really vicious stuff, it will rip your lungs out double quick. No reports speak of the smoke acting like a poison gas, and given the close ranges involved in naval warfare, such smoke would be quite likely to kill your own troops.
 
Last edited:
The incendiary substance itself seems to have been quite stable and easy to handle. Carried around in amphorae, by common soldiers. There are reports of stocks of it being captured by enemies, who could not work out how to use it. Which points to something more than a basic "burny stuff". I wonder if it might have actually been a two part preparation, with part B being added right at the point of use ?
 
Reports seem fairly clear that strong vinegar extinguished the flame, water made it burn harder.
interestingly, i was reading World War Z just earlier today and it mentioned water making some bombs detonate. here's an excerpt:
At Miskolc Diosgyor in Hungary, as I understand it, someone got their hands on a cache of military-grade, sodium-based explosives. Don't ask me what exactly it was or why they had it, but nobody seemed to know that water, not fire, was the catalytic agent. The storygoest hast someone was smoking in the armory, caused some small fire or whatnot. The stupid sods thought they were preventing an explosion by dousing the crates in water. It blew a hole right through the wall and the dead surged in like water through a breached dam.
perhaps we could look at known explosive agents that are antagonized by water rather than extinguished by it, we can get something of an idea for what made Greek Fire so formidable, at least as far as our discussion is concerned
 
The incendiary substance itself seems to have been quite stable and easy to handle. Carried around in amphorae, by common soldiers. There are reports of stocks of it being captured by enemies, who could not work out how to use it. Which points to something more than a basic "burny stuff". I wonder if it might have actually been a two part preparation, with part B being added right at the point of use ?

makes sense, the naphtha and other liquids mixed in would be good to handle.
The quicklime and maybe sulphur would be added later.
 
interestingly, i was reading World War Z just earlier today and it mentioned water making some bombs detonate. here's an excerpt:

perhaps we could look at known explosive agents that are antagonized by water rather than extinguished by it, we can get something of an idea for what made Greek Fire so formidable, at least as far as our discussion is concerned

See my note below re 18th C manufacture of metallic potassium (basically, very similar to sodium)
 
the syphons that were used for spraying, did they spray pre-heated greek fire? because would think that if they used something like bunker oil (the fuel most big ships use) it would be very sticky already. Bunker oil needs to be heated before it can be used. And the heat the quicklime produced would be needed to keep it burning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil (the fuels no 5 & 6 / bunker B mentioned in the article)
 
They did pre heat ( and is anyone else having 'weapons to pre heat' flashbacks.

but that's not the question.

If Greek fire is available its a short range incendiary and given we are talking about manual siphons that's going to be very short range.

Its likely to increase the lifespan of the oared warship in the med if you own Greek fire but little else.

Incendiary of a full rigged ship is a bad idea, incendiary that you cannot put out if it gets knocked over by a long range broadside a much worse one.

Cannon fire vs lightweight oared ships is devastating and against heavyweight ones fairly devastating.

A greek fire broadside ship would be a sort of burning HNS Glatton, devastating the first time, after that stand off and fire at the rigging, then stern rake.
 
They did pre heat ( and is anyone else having 'weapons to pre heat' flashbacks.

but that's not the question.

If Greek fire is available its a short range incendiary and given we are talking about manual siphons that's going to be very short range.

was asking because tar and heavy oils tend to be sticky by itself, no need for gelling agents. pre-heat so it flows easy through the syphons
 
Top