WI: Greek Fire never lost?

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Deleted member 67076

Greek fire: an incendiary weapon used by the Byzantine Empire noted for its extraordinary utility, being able to burn atop water and notoriously difficult to put out.

So what if the secret to the creation of Greek fire was never lost, either by a surviving Byzantine empire or the formula being recreated/adopted by another state, like, for example say the Venetians or the British?

How does this effect naval warfare? Especially during the age of exploration and gunpowder? What if its monopoly is lost and it becomes a common tool in the arsenal of navies everywhere?
 
There were other incendiary weapons available by the time the Gunpowder age came around. Greek Fire was a relative short range weapon, as well, compared to cannon. I don't see how the continued knowledge base for Greek Fire would offer any decisive advantages by the end of the 15th C.
 
It'd be a useful supplementary weapon though - cannons may have longer range but the range that they can effectively bombard an enemy ship into destruction is remarkably short.

That said, the main problem is that Greek Fire isn't concerned with whose ships are being burned, so its not really a good idea to use it if your own ship is too close to being burnt.

I'd say the best use of it would be to make fireships and similar tactics even more terrifying.
 
It could be very useful for land based defence against ships, though? Especially smaller ports and such that couldn't afford/justify a big fortress, but were still vulnerable to (say) Barbary pirates.

A stock of frangible vessels filled with Greek Fire, and a means of slinging them. If they hit a ship, that's pretty hellish - nothing was feared so much at sea s fire. Even if they miss and land on the water, so long as they break that's still useful because it will float, burning, on the water, which will be , at the least, a PITA to the ships. Will a ship's commander really want to navigate through a sea of flame? In a wooden ship ?
 

Deimos

Banned
Greek fire can probably be used on smaller ships (small sailing ships, canoes, et cetera) and might be useful not only in big battles but also as a relatively cheap coast-denying weapon not unsimilar to how torpedo boats work in naval strategies (small and vulnerable but fast/maneuverable and armed with a dangerous weapon.)

It might also be useful to break through a close harbour blockade (e.g. using fireships with some visible small ships behind at one point to dictate the maneuvers of the enemy in order to get the opportunity to attack with your real force at another point).


This frees up bigger ships and their crews for other duties. In war time conscripted fishermen and their boats could be used to mount the small ships described above while the "regular" navy concentrates on bringing the fight to the enemy.
 
There were other incendiary weapons available by the time the Gunpowder age came around. Greek Fire was a relative short range weapon, as well, compared to cannon. I don't see how the continued knowledge base for Greek Fire would offer any decisive advantages by the end of the 15th C.

as already mentioned at least in a fireship, it could make the fireships more effective. instead setting fire to what it hits, it sprays fire in several directions.

Also the era of sail was the time of short range encounters, and greek fire could prove to be rather good defensive weapon against ships coming too close with the intention of boarding the other ship


and as jedidiah mentioned, the fire grenades will be most useful, maybe even as a burning grenade for a cannon (like how shrapnel is anti personnel)
it would also be used during sieges


edit: and if the kept this invention too, would become very tricky
13th century syrian greek fire filled torpedo http://greathistory.com/very-very-early-torpedoes.htm
 
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katchen

Banned
Of course since Greek fire requires a source of petroleum, it helps for a power that would use it to have petroleum available.
The chief effect of Greek Fire remaining available may well be to increase interest on the part of states on discovering and developing petroleum seeps. And in petroleum distillation. Which means that "rock oil" may well displace candles hundreds of years early--and without ever bothering the Earth's population of whales:):):):). That would be a very good thing.
 
didn't Greek fire continue to burn on the surface of water? it could work well as an area denial weapon if the intent is to keep enemy ships in a particular location
 
A stock of frangible vessels filled with Greek Fire, and a means of slinging them. If they hit a ship, that's pretty hellish - nothing was feared so much at sea s fire. Even if they miss and land on the water, so long as they break that's still useful because it will float, burning, on the water, which will be , at the least, a PITA to the ships. Will a ship's commander really want to navigate through a sea of flame? In a wooden ship ?

Afaik, such fire grenades were used by mid-age trebouchets during sieges. I am not sure about the construction of roman fire grenades used with onagers long before the invention of greek fire. However, even if these fire grenades were filled with some kind of flammable stuff, it was not as effective as greek fire.

I can imagine, if such grenades are filled with greek fire, they can be very useful against ships, armies or cities, even after gunpoweder was invented.
 
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katchen

Banned
Is there any sign that its OTL usage discouraged using candles in Byzantium?
An interesting question. Someone would have to figure out how to distill petroleum. The naptha of course is Greek fire. The asphalt is pitch (used as tarmac mortar in biblical times). It's the middle distillates that would make a good lamp oil.
Surely someone must have figured it out. In China if not in Byzantium. If not, why not?
 
An interesting question. Someone would have to figure out how to distill petroleum. The naptha of course is Greek fire. The asphalt is pitch (used as tarmac mortar in biblical times). It's the middle distillates that would make a good lamp oil.
Surely someone must have figured it out. In China if not in Byzantium. If not, why not?

Because "its obvious" rarely is when it comes to developing technology, as is constantly ignored in tech what if threads?
 
In 1759, Antoine Dupré, a french jewellist, found greek fire formula by luck and send it to Louis XV. By humanism, the french king decide to burrie the secret and buy Dupré silence.

So make Antoine Dupré give his secret of greek fire to another European king.
 
In 1759, Antoine Dupré, a french jewellist, found greek fire formula by luck and send it to Louis XV. By humanism, the french king decide to burrie the secret and buy Dupré silence.

So make Antoine Dupré give his secret of greek fire to another European king.
this sounds like the best way to make this work. though i wonder which country he'd go to if not France?
 
this sounds like the best way to make this work. though i wonder which country he'd go to if not France?

probably either the United Provinces or Britain, but at this time i would guess the UP considering it was less anti-french than britain
 
In 1759, Antoine Dupré, a french jewellist, found greek fire formula by luck and send it to Louis XV. By humanism, the french king decide to burrie the secret and buy Dupré silence.

So make Antoine Dupré give his secret of greek fire to another European king.

I wonder how much reliance can be placed on M Dupre's discovery ?

I'm sure that a M. Dupre discovered or formulated some sort of incendiary mixture. But whether it was indeed 'Greek fire',more dubious

The characteristics that made Greek Fire so formidable a weapon seem to have defied industrial age attempts at rediscovery.Many incendiary mixtures have been formulated through the ages (including napalm our own time), but none quite corresponding to Greek Fire. Though a lot of people have claimed to have rediscovered it through the ages
 
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