WI: Greece holds in WWII

Alas only ASB's could save Greece.

The reality is only massive reinforcements could have saved Greece Pre-Barbarossa. The kind of reinforcements that Britain didn't have and couldn't send through an unfriendly central Mediterranean.

Conversely less British help to Greece from Britain than OTL, may have helped the Greeks more as they may have held the Italians alone into the summer of 1941. It was only the very limited British intervention that focused the minds of Germans on Greece.

If the Germans don't strike south in the spring of 1941 it creates many interesting butterflies, including; The Brits could use the troupes and resources used OTL in Greece to batter Romel and/or Brits send larger reinforcements to Greece after the Germans invade Russia leaving the Germans in a bit of a sticky wicket needing to divert their reserves to deal with this new threat. Of course the Germans have more resources not expended in Greece for the start of the Russian campaign.


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Alas only ASB's could save Greece.

The reality is only massive reinforcements could have saved Greece Pre-Barbarossa. The kind of reinforcements that Britain didn't have and couldn't send through an unfriendly central Mediterranean.

Conversely less British help to Greece from Britain than OTL, may have helped the Greeks more as they may have held the Italians alone into the summer of 1941. It was only the very limited British intervention that focused the minds of Germans on Greece.

If the Germans don't strike south in the spring of 1941 it creates many interesting butterflies, including; The Brits could use the troupes and resources used OTL in Greece to batter Romel and/or Brits send larger reinforcements to Greece after the Germans invade Russia leaving the Germans in a bit of a sticky wicket needing to divert their reserves to deal with this new threat. Of course the Germans have more resources not expended in Greece for the start of the Russian campaign.


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I agree. The Greek Situations wasn't helped by the assistance of the British, instead it painted a big old target on their back for Germany to go for. Germany didn't want to get involved with any of Mussolini's side projects, but if that project back fired and allowed the Allies an advantage, they would.

The Greek Government did pretty much everything it could to stop invaders. It was heavily fortified, well trained and for the most part equipped. The Italians lost against a much smaller force and under-armed force. The whole situations was an embarrassment for the Italian Government. Have the Greeks hold out longer, without British assistance and pretty soon the Italians will either offer terms or retreat entirely from arena.
 
I haven't checked it, but IIRC the British official history on the war in the Middle East and Mediterranean said that the British "Top Brass" though that 12 BEC divisions were required to hold Greece and that sending anything less would do more harm than good.
 
I don't think the British sending nothing would stop the Germans targeting Greece.

Germany cannot allow Greece to remain at war with Italy and the situation in the Balkans unresolved. So even if Greece declares no British troops/aid will be accepted, Germany can't accept that. It's a constant danger that at any point, Greece may change it's mind and then suddenly their is a major theatre on mainland Europe with British (and American?) troops on the ground. Romania is threatened and the oilfields and if the Germans are fighting the Soviets this makes for a very dangerous situation in the Balkans.

The only way to save Greece would be to make it pointless for the British to WANT to be there, but I can't see how this is possible unless Yugoslavia and (at least) Bulgaria are also neutral. And Greece then holding (and defeating) Italy in Albania could lead to an early overthrow of Mussolini.

Germany has to help Italy once Italy has attacked.

And once it does so, it has to win. If necessary, throwing everything at it. And the British and Greeks alone can't stop this.

Wow........
 
I don't think the British sending nothing would stop the Germans targeting Greece.

Germany cannot allow Greece to remain at war with Italy and the situation in the Balkans unresolved. So even if Greece declares no British troops/aid will be accepted, Germany can't accept that. It's a constant danger that at any point, Greece may change it's mind and then suddenly their is a major theatre on mainland Europe with British (and American?) troops on the ground. Romania is threatened and the oilfields and if the Germans are fighting the Soviets this makes for a very dangerous situation in the Balkans.

The only way to save Greece would be to make it pointless for the British to WANT to be there, but I can't see how this is possible unless Yugoslavia and (at least) Bulgaria are also neutral. And Greece then holding (and defeating) Italy in Albania could lead to an early overthrow of Mussolini.

Germany has to help Italy once Italy has attacked.

And once it does so, it has to win. If necessary, throwing everything at it. And the British and Greeks alone can't stop this.

Wow........

Germany can't target Greece. It's a noun, not a verb.

The BEC forces lost (IIRC) 10,000 men and the equipment of 3 infantry divisions in Greece IOTL for no corresponding damage to the Germans.

If they had been sent to reinforce XIII Corps instead they might have stopped Rommel taking Cyrencia the first time. If logistics prevented that at least the British Empire & Commonwealth forces could have attacked in greater strength in Operations Brevity and Battleaxe.
 
What does it take for Greece (with Allied help) to successfully repel a German invasion in Spring 1941?

Do you need to hold all of Greece or just part ?

A) is probably ASB
B) well you might hold the island of Crete does that count ?
 
Do you need to hold all of Greece or just part?
The Greeks weren't going to give up part of their country voluntarily. IIRC they refused to pull their forces back and give up northern Greece and Thessalonica, their second city, even when they didn't have the troop numbers needed so their defensive line ended up being outflanked and troops cut off. The Greek and Commonwealth forces could probably have done better if they had fallen back to the Aliakmon Line and set out another defensive line to link the northern end of it to the territory they held in Albania to defend against an invasion from Yugoslavia. The Axis forces are still going to win since the Germans can bring their heavier weight of manpower and easier overland logistics to bear but the Allies would likely be able to hold out longer, slowly withdraw down the peninsula to new lines as they go and the geography favours them, and generally increase the costs that the Germans have to pay to win. In an ideal world this translates to a better evacuation that see more troops and their equipment moved to Crete so that any airborne invasion sees the whole paratrooper force defeated and captured, but that's another matter.
 
Best case scenario?

What does it take for Greece (with Allied help) to successfully repel a German invasion in Spring 1941?
Best scenario seems to me to be that the Greeks lose the mainland, but hold onto Crete.
Anything else requires either Italy not invading in the first place, or Stalin deciding to rip up the non-aggression pact and drive west (or at least try to do so) at the start of 1941, giving Germany much, much, more than Greece to worry about.
 
1) holding on against Germany in the mainland may be impossible.
2) From what I've read, the Germans were going to attack Greece whether the Brits aided them or not
3) It might, theoretically, maybe, with huge amounts of luck, be possible to hold the Peloponnese, stopping the Axis at the Corinth canal. But I'm not holding my breath. And holding anything north of that does verge on ASB once the Germans enter.
4) holding Crete is entirely possible. The German margin of victory was incredibly slight, and small changes in the Commonwealth defence could have stopped the airborne invasion cold. Holding Crete would have been costly for the Allies, but further attempts to take it would be even more so for the Axis.
5) I could imagine that there exists a universe where Hitler left Benny to hang in the wind in Greece, which would allow a Greek victory - in fact make it probable. But I can't imagine what that PoD would be.

IMO.
 
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