WI: Greco- Bactrian empire inc. India, Tibet + Kansu

In my timeline 'After Actium' a resurgent Greco-Bactrian empire has established itself from the Hindu Kush and Punjab to Chorasmia on the Caspian and Gedrosia along Persian Gulf. It also holds a couple of Arab ports. I want to know

1) if it would be possible to expand along the Silk Road into Kansu, cross over into the Tibetan plateau, defeat the Xiognu and conquer India north of the Deccan?

2) what cultural, religious, economic effects would such an empire have, even if lasting a single generation?
 
Gosh. Well, Graeco-Bactria is pretty much my field so I'll see what I can contribute here.

It's not really been established exactly why the OTL Graeco-Bactrian kingdom fell in the first place, but part of the problem is that it's a highly attractive region to control. It's highly fertile, densely populated, and full of natural resources. It's also got the Oxus river running through it which was navigable and allegedly had links to trade routes further into Europe. Anybody trying to become the new bully in Central Asia will want to control this area.

The OTL Bactrian Kingdom had the issue of civil war cropping up time and time again. The first dynasty of Kings didn't even last two full reigns before a rival dynast toppled them, and after the conquest of India there pretty much wasn't a time when all of Hellenistic Bactria was under the control of a single authority.

I realise that you're talking about a 'Neo Graeco-Bactrian' Empire pretty much. But the question of how it deals with devolving authority is pretty relevant; communication is clearly going to be an issue, as Gedrosia is not the easiest place to cross in the world and there are large arid regions between Bactria and the Arabian ports it controls. It would seem to require an efficient communication network to function properly, as it's larger than the OTL Graeco-Bactrian kingdom in sheer area.

The basis of its OTL armies seems to have been a combination of kleros-settled Greeks and Iranian cavalry. It probably also hired Scythians to complement this cavalry arm as well. But in this timeline the Greeks are only now on top again for the first time in around a century; what is the basis of their manpower now? In order to properly garrison and protect a territory of this size, it seems to me that it would need a large and organised army.

Considering the amount of frontiers this state has in awkward places - the Central Asian steppes, the Punjab, the Tibetan passes, the Iranian plateau- it seems like it couldn't possibly expand into Tibet without seriously depleting its ability to police at least one of these borders. Bear in mind that it's more than 100km between Samarkhand and Bactra, and these are two cities within the core region of Bactria. I think it would probably be possible to inflict defeats on the Xiongu, but I feel like this would require large amounts of cavalry that would reduce the capacity of Bactria to respond to other threats at the same time.

OTL, Bactria did successfully expand into India. But it never seems to have developed an infrastructure capable of running an Imperial state and its telling that the state seems to have become overextended once it conquered Indian territories. This is in the period in which you have a billion Indo-Greek kings all issuing their coinage at the same time.

In order to be able to maintain this size without simply being overrun from one of its many frontiers, it feels like the state a) has to try to find some better defensible frontiers, b) needs to have a very well organised army capable of reacting to threats at very high speed, c) needs to be capable of administrating all of these territories without having dynasts and satraps simply declare independence at the drop of a hat. It also feels like the state needs to either incorporate Bactrians into the state to the point where they can be relied upon to serve in professional armies, or they need to find themselves a new supply of Greek colonists.
 
Hey! Thanks for the detailed reply. The King ITTL is really a Kushan prince, related to both the Saka and Indo-Greeks. He united the Saka, Yuezhi and Indo-Greeks/Greco-Bactrians while picking up parts of crumbling Parthia. Cultural and religious identity is focused on Bactria, where the Scythians have been settled and intermarrying for a generation or two by this point. Gymnasiums in cities and towns propagate Greek culture among a Hellenized middle class of future soldiers and administrators. The Caspian Sea and Iranian plateau form the western border while the Narmada River would be the most likely southern border after finishing up the Kanva. There is something of a navy also, allowing for better communication/supply fuether afield. The adminsitrative model is lifted from the Achaeminids, with kinsmen and in-laws ruling in the Great-King's name as satraps or junior kings. Civil/succession war is unavoidable but for the sake of this WI let's say it's put off for a generation or two.

As such, army would be a mixed bag of Iranian-style cavalry, Scythians, Indian recruits with their elephants and perhaps a minimal "Greek" force (though I Imagine a cultural renaissance and contact with the west might lead to improved infantry quite quickly). An alliance with the Andhras/Satavahanas and weakened Parthia and Kanva might allow the Empire to move focus across the Oxus without risking significant losses elsewhere (simply because all of ita southern and western neighbours are pacified or too weak). These conquests are followed by the spread of Greek culture, gymnasiums, baths and militias like in Bactria. The empire trades with China and dominates both steppe and Indian commerce, spreading culture and technology in both directions. If/when it fractures it does so between Hellenized/Greco-Bactraina princes and satraps most of whom would also draw on Hellenism as a unifying factor in their realms. These Oriental and Central Asian diadochoi wars have lasting impact on Asian, even Chinese culture, religion and politics. What you think?
 
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You might find that Scythians are actually a stronger presence than you might think; there's evidence that Sogdiana had a relatively large population of 'settled' Scythians or Scythians tied by alliegance as far back as the Achaemenid period. Bactria and Sogdiana have always had a somewhat complicated relationship with the steppe nomads.

Now, the problem with the gymnasions is this; when the Scythians and their amigos invaded Bactria, they pretty much destroyed all of that. Ai Khanoum, Alexandria Oxiana, was pretty much razed to the ground and this was a monumental city that may even have functioned as a capital. Their treatment of the other major Hellenistic centres of the kingdom does not seem to have been any kinder. So the question is; where do these gymnasiums come from? By this point, the 'elite' identity in the kingdom is no longer Greek, so why would he be interested in propogating an identity that is not associated with the ruling class?

In this period in actual history, the Kushans are only just getting going as a real state and the Greek identity in the area was still relatively strong (if no longer an elite identity). We still get coinage issued in Greek style, though there is a steady growth in Bactrian inscriptions that use a modified Greek script for an Iranian language. So I think you can probably assume that little enough time has passed that there are relatively numerous descendants of the various military settlers of Graeco-Bactria and probably that Greece continued to be a living language (although not for much longer). It seems the prevailing theory is that the Hellenic elements of society continued to be used by the Kushan state afterwards, but I haven't seen any paper or book that properly discusses what this might have entailed or that provided evidence for it. My point is that it's possible that Hellenistic-style warfare continued to be practised by militia forces, levies, and perhaps some professional elements.

They probably missed out on some of the later Seleucid reforms of infantry, so if they want to remain relevant Hellenistic infantry of this state will definitely need to modernise. I would have thought that some of the older hoplite/phalanx modes would survive in elite units like Agema if they're being revived, but that you'd see a shift towards the 'imitation legion' style (which actually weren't imitating the Romans but that's a different matter). What Bactria lacks, so far as I know, is the technology to produce steel. Iron is certainly found nearby, in the Bamayan province of modern Afghanistan. But I'm fairly certain the Graeco-Bactrians didn't have steel, and I think that might prove a problem given time. The first evidence of crucible steel in Central Asia isn't until the 8th Century AD OTL, as far as I know.

I think that placing the state as the middle-man of the China-Europe trade might be work as a way of spreading culture both ways. I do think that a Hellenistic state existing in a living form in Central Asia again would probably have a lasting impact; even the OTL Hellenistic presence there had consequences for the development of India and Central Asia.

One thing I would say is that demographically, it would still seem that Bactrian will eventually eventually triumph in some fashion as a written language. It's spoken by the largest group in the core region of Bactria, and I don't really see the other Indo-Iranian languages making significant inroads here. I think it's definitely going to become a vernacular language, but I think you can justify Greek remaining administratively and as a prestige language.

I think you definitely need to establish how Greeks transition into becoming an elite group again, from what amounts to a standing start.
 
I think this revived state (like the Kushan Empire, which sounds like you are creating by different means than OTL) will be more interested in trading with the Bon Tibetan kingdoms than conquering them. Will Buddhism play a similar role in this TL? I do see a push into the Tarim Basin and control over the oasis cities of this stretch of the Silk Road. You will be on your way to creating (or recreating) a prosperous trading state! I assume you will be absorbing the remnant Indo-Greek states and controlling the population and agriculturally rich Gangetic Plain. I think it will be hard for the Greek identity not to be mostly absorbed into the local fabric as per OTL within a few generations of the POD. Can you get an infusion of Greek settlers from the West, somehow? Greek overseas traders?

Very interested where this TL might go!
 
This is all interesting, and my only comment is that I wish we'd had someone study the issue in depth since Tarn.
 
That's really not true, about Tarn. He's actually too old fashioned to be used on the topic anymore, and his work was written before we actually found Ai Khanoum which completely rewrote the book on Graeco-Bactria after its discovery and excavation. Also before we'd found anything much of Hellenistic remains in Samarkhand and Bactra, or the temple at Takht-i-Sangin which is an important non-urban site for understanding Graeco-Bactrian culture.

Modern prominent authors on Bactria include Rachel Mairs, Michael Shenkar, Paul Bernard, Osmund Bopearachchi, Frank Holt, Pierre Leriche, J.D Lerner, B. A. Litvinsky/Litvinskij was a prominent expert on North Bactrian archaeology before his recent death, Claude Rapin, Saul Shaked. There also others that I know a little less well.

Even authors not primarily focused on Bactria have dealt with the area; Susan Sherwin White and Amelie Kuhrt's book From Samarkhand to Sardis has a section dealing with Bactria, and the Bactrian Greeks are also dealt with in Klaus Kartunnen's India and the Hellenistic World.

White and Kuhrt's book is available on Google Books and is easily accessed, Rachel Mairs also wrote probably the only accurate and concise summary of the Hellenistic Far East's archaeology in the English language recently and that can be found here.

We still lack a lot of information on Bactria, but the fact that we can even speculate about a large portion of this era is because the field very much alive and encountering new evidence.
 
I agree there's plenty of stuff in Bactria; but how much is there on India?

But that's a damn interesting book. Thanks.
 
If you make Tocharian it's offical language and Manicheaism it's most common religon then you get extra super big cookies.
 
You might find that Scythians are actually a stronger presence than you might think; there's evidence that Sogdiana had a relatively large population of 'settled' Scythians or Scythians tied by alliegance as far back as the Achaemenid period. Bactria and Sogdiana have always had a somewhat complicated relationship with the steppe nomads.

Now, the problem with the gymnasions is this; when the Scythians and their amigos invaded Bactria, they pretty much destroyed all of that. Ai Khanoum, Alexandria Oxiana, was pretty much razed to the ground and this was a monumental city that may even have functioned as a capital. Their treatment of the other major Hellenistic centres of the kingdom does not seem to have been any kinder. So the question is; where do these gymnasiums come from? By this point, the 'elite' identity in the kingdom is no longer Greek, so why would he be interested in propogating an identity that is not associated with the ruling class?

In this period in actual history, the Kushans are only just getting going as a real state and the Greek identity in the area was still relatively strong (if no longer an elite identity). We still get coinage issued in Greek style, though there is a steady growth in Bactrian inscriptions that use a modified Greek script for an Iranian language. So I think you can probably assume that little enough time has passed that there are relatively numerous descendants of the various military settlers of Graeco-Bactria and probably that Greece continued to be a living language (although not for much longer). It seems the prevailing theory is that the Hellenic elements of society continued to be used by the Kushan state afterwards, but I haven't seen any paper or book that properly discusses what this might have entailed or that provided evidence for it. My point is that it's possible that Hellenistic-style warfare continued to be practised by militia forces, levies, and perhaps some professional elements.

They probably missed out on some of the later Seleucid reforms of infantry, so if they want to remain relevant Hellenistic infantry of this state will definitely need to modernise. I would have thought that some of the older hoplite/phalanx modes would survive in elite units like Agema if they're being revived, but that you'd see a shift towards the 'imitation legion' style (which actually weren't imitating the Romans but that's a different matter). What Bactria lacks, so far as I know, is the technology to produce steel. Iron is certainly found nearby, in the Bamayan province of modern Afghanistan. But I'm fairly certain the Graeco-Bactrians didn't have steel, and I think that might prove a problem given time. The first evidence of crucible steel in Central Asia isn't until the 8th Century AD OTL, as far as I know.

I think that placing the state as the middle-man of the China-Europe trade might be work as a way of spreading culture both ways. I do think that a Hellenistic state existing in a living form in Central Asia again would probably have a lasting impact; even the OTL Hellenistic presence there had consequences for the development of India and Central Asia.

One thing I would say is that demographically, it would still seem that Bactrian will eventually eventually triumph in some fashion as a written language. It's spoken by the largest group in the core region of Bactria, and I don't really see the other Indo-Iranian languages making significant inroads here. I think it's definitely going to become a vernacular language, but I think you can justify Greek remaining administratively and as a prestige language.

I think you definitely need to establish how Greeks transition into becoming an elite group again, from what amounts to a standing start.

Interesting interesting, great stuff. To respond:

- In this timeline, I'm assuming/imaging the Scythian penetration into Bactria as slightly more pacific than OTL. The major push that resulted in the Kushan Empire hasn't happened at the start - the Indo-Greek kings are still there with their tiny principalities, Indo-Parthian realm of Suren is there at the start, etc.

I've worked in marriages between a conquering Yuezhi chief with a Greco-Bactrian princess, to account for OTL appearance of Greek elements (perhaps indicating Kushan descent from the Eucratids or Euthymids) on Kushan coins. So we have a prince, Sapadbizes, who has some "Greek" blood and is perhaps literate in Greek, who is competing for ascendancy in the region against a rival chief, a half-brother called Pseigacharis. The Parthians briefly take back the Bactra oasis, placing Cleopatra there; the abandoned Cleopatra eventually invites Sapadbizes and his men to come forth and join her. The marriage provides Cleopatra with much needed protection from her enemies and provides Sapadbizes with a dynastic/imperial legitimacy before the remaining Greek élite. He thus styles himself King of Kings and sees himself as a viable successor to the crumbling Arsacid, Seleucid and Achaeminid lineage, in no small part thanks to his partially-Seleucid queen. I'd like to think that such a sequence of events, and particularly Cleopatra's charismatic presence, would strengthen Greek identity, both in the reborn/newfound state and its young king. As Sapadbizes unites the Indo-Greek kingdoms, the Saka and the Yuezhi, settling more of his Yuezhi bethren further south in Bactria and beyond, there is less destruction (or none) than OTL. Beyond that, Sapadbizes actively patronizes and builds gymnasiums, where the local ephebes are educated and subsequently drafted into city militias (perhaps providing him with those 'Greek' infantry units we talked about?) and civic administration. Whether Bactrian, Indian, Scythian, Iranian, these young men get educated in both martial arts and a smattering of Hellenistic knowledge, enough to advance them according to Sapadbizes' desires.

I should also mention Sapadbizes not only marries Cleopatra in this TL, but also visits Rome, Mediolanum, Greece and the Roman East, perhaps influencing greatly his conception of empire and Imperial displays of power, military organization, etc.

My thought is that Sapadbizes will therefore draw more heavily on Greek/Hellenistic tradition than his own paternal culture, encouraging the rest of the Yuezhi/Saka elite to intermarry yet further with the Greco-Bactrians and Hellenize just as much or more so than OTL.

As for steel, I think there might also be iron to be found in India. Contact with Rome and Arabia perhaps facilitates the spread of the necessary technology?

Beyond this I'm imagining Cleopatra, even after her departure, acting as a sort of Bactrian Arsinoe II, establishing the prototype of both queenship and monarchy overall. Drawing also from Argead, Seleucid and Arsacid traditions, where marriage to women of the royal family gave men a share of royal power, resulting in frequent incestous marriages (half-sisters and step-mothers are attested as far back as the Argeads) by new monarchs seeking to stabilize their throne. Here, the legitimacy of Sapadbizes' claims to kingly status and Seleucid succession derived primarily from his marriage to Cleopatra - creating a mold for his successors to follow, in marrying the "rightful heiress" as a means of securing the throne and establishing their own superioty over the client Indo-Greek kings and lesser chieftains of the Saka and Yuezhi.

I could go on and on :eek::p but that's the rough outline so far. Alas, no Tocharian or Manichaeism...right now I'm think Greco-Bactrian and Greco-Buddhist revival :D
 
I think this revived state (like the Kushan Empire, which sounds like you are creating by different means than OTL) will be more interested in trading with the Bon Tibetan kingdoms than conquering them. Will Buddhism play a similar role in this TL? I do see a push into the Tarim Basin and control over the oasis cities of this stretch of the Silk Road. You will be on your way to creating (or recreating) a prosperous trading state! I assume you will be absorbing the remnant Indo-Greek states and controlling the population and agriculturally rich Gangetic Plain. I think it will be hard for the Greek identity not to be mostly absorbed into the local fabric as per OTL within a few generations of the POD. Can you get an infusion of Greek settlers from the West, somehow? Greek overseas traders?

Very interested where this TL might go!

Thank you! I'm working on some new, Bactria-centric posts right now. The Indo-Greeks have already been subjugated, my idea is to expand yet further into India and basically conquer all of northern India, which would be administered directly instead of through client kings (á la customary Indian style). After that, it might make sense for the King to try to take back the Yuezhi homeland in Kansu, where some remnants (the Little Yuezhi) still remain. Coupled with his Arab and Caspian sea ports, the result is an unprecedented and complete monopoly of East-West trade through both land and sea routes toward Rome and Europe :eek::D

In the north newly conquered Chorasmia is proximate to the Greeks of the Bosporus and Black Sea, and in the south the Arab ports are proximate to new Roman provinces in Arabia, dominated by semi-Hellenized Nabataeans. Through the Persian Gulf there's also contact with a Roman client kingdom of Hellenistic Babylon. So...I don't see much space for a major influx of Greek settlers, but constant exchange with the Nabataeans and Roman clients could result in some fresh admixtures of Hellenistic culture, perhaps? Things like the cult of Isis, Greek philosophy (for the nobility), military tactics, etc, might end up going east when those fine silks, spices and elephants go west ;)
 
Discussions like this are why I love this Forum.

A question for the experts here. Ive heard much about the possible transmittal of Buddhism and other South Asian philosophies to the West. Was Greco-Bactria in communication with the rest of the Hellenistic world at this time? My impression was always that it was very much a state isolate.
 
Discussions like this are why I love this Forum.

A question for the experts here. Ive heard much about the possible transmittal of Buddhism and other South Asian philosophies to the West. Was Greco-Bactria in communication with the rest of the Hellenistic world at this time? My impression was always that it was very much a state isolate.

There was apparently some direct or indirect communications between Bactria and the Hellenistic World, even after both the Seleucid and Bactrian polities contracted and were no longer contiguous. There were commentators such as Strabo (63 BC - 24 CE) who were aware of at least some developments in the East. There seems to have been long-term trade connections between India and the Hellenistic and Roman worlds. The latter probably transported knowledge of Buddhism to the West (where it didn't leave an obvious impact). All evidence seems to show that the Greeks in the East were isolated really only in a political sense but not so much culturally -- ideas and culture travel well.
 
Discussions like this are why I love this Forum.

A question for the experts here. Ive heard much about the possible transmittal of Buddhism and other South Asian philosophies to the West. Was Greco-Bactria in communication with the rest of the Hellenistic world at this time? My impression was always that it was very much a state isolate.

This was a common misconception. The idea was that the growth of the Parthian state physically cut off the Greco-Bactrians from everyone else. This is a very primitive way of looking at the situation, and archaeologically untenable. Greek artifacts and trends in material culture from the Aegean and Mediterranean continued to make their way to Bactria. It also became clear this wasn't true after serious reappraisal of the way artifacts and epigraphy from Ai Khanoum had been dated. It's most likely that the slightly famous inscription of the Delpic Maxims at Ai Khanoum was actually done right before the end of the city's lifetime. It's not exactly easy to get from Delphi to Bactria at the best of times, but it was certainly possible to have freedom of movement that far.
 
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