WI: Greater Germany, including ALL of the Austrian Empire?

Okay, let's have the basic, cliche Greater Germany scenario, where all of Germany is united in 1848 after the Frankfurt Convention.
But what if, instead of Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia, etc. being detached from the empire as is usual in the cliche, what if they are incorporated into Greater Germany after a dose of handwavium?
Assuming (and this is, admittedly, a big if) they can keep the minorities in the empire, what happens next?
 
The general POD used to get Austria in the German Empire.
I hardly see how that makes it cliche. Beside that, the only reason Frankfurt got as far as it did in OTL was because the Austrian Empire was tied up with Hungary. When Austria managed to hold itself together it was able to put an end to the convention.
 
I hardly see how that makes it cliche. Beside that, the only reason Frankfurt got as far as it did in OTL was because the Austrian Empire was tied up with Hungary. When Austria managed to hold itself together it was able to put an end to the convention.
For the SAKE of discussion, let's say they SOMEHOW this manages to happen.
 
Okay, let's have the basic, cliche Greater Germany scenario, where all of Germany is united in 1848 after the Frankfurt Convention.
But what if, instead of Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia, etc. being detached from the empire as is usual in the cliche, what if they are incorporated into Greater Germany after a dose of handwavium?
Every other Great Power on the face of the planet immediately declares war.
 
Because a Grossdeutsch-Magyar Blob is not so much a threat as a positive menace to the balance of power?
Well, let's see, I'd certainly see France having trouble with it, but Germany would eventually have to contend with it anyway, Britain would stay isolationist unless DIRECTLY threatened, and Russia might just leave Germany alone if they showed no signs of encroaching Russian territory.
 
Britain would stay isolationist unless DIRECTLY threatened,
Where is the Grossdeutch-Magyar Blob going to go? This is the nineteenth century, and even liberal democratic powers (as this new blob would presumably be, emerging out of Frankfurt and all) were expansionist, as Britain herself proved. It could encroach west or east on Russia or France. British policy for the past sixty years at least - many would say for much longer - had been to prevent one power dominating Europe; a Great Power war with the Grossdeutsch-Magyar Blob on one side, with said Blob bent on conquest, would see Britain on the other, if only because the Continent is a major British export market and they don't want to see it lost to Wupper Valley merchants.

Going north or south is in many ways worse. Britain cannot tolerate the Blob having more than its already-extant foothold on the North Sea. Going south threatens the British position in the Med, its great strategic pipeline to India, and thus an area where Britain cannot abide a challenge.

The perception that nineteenth-century Splendid Isolation was only to be broken if an invader captured Dover in a suprise attack is totally erroneous, as any British member of the board will tell you.

and Russia might just leave Germany alone if they showed no signs of encroaching Russian territory.
Really? This was the Russia that was, at the time, called the "gendarme of Europe". 1848 was where it established its willingness and capability to intervene in order to protect the status quo; interestingly, it did so in the eastern lands of the Blob. That is, Hungary. While it is true that crushing a liberal revolt is different from declaring war on a massively powerful liberal nation, I can't see reactionary Russia tolerating said massively powerful nation, particularly as said massively powerful nation has a long border with Russia and a powerful interest in "liberating" Poland. Not only that, the Blob would almost certainly be able to edge Russia out of the Balkans and would be the Ottomans' major protector in any wars of conquest Russia might want to engage in against that power.

The formation of this country is a gold-inked invitation on linen paper, handed to every power on a silver platter by a fastitious butler, to declare war.
 

Typo

Banned
Why does everyone always think everyone except France is ok with Greater-SuperWank Germany in the middle of Europe?

On the other hand, there is going to be a significant amount of instability in the this version of the Reich, after all, the raison d'etre of Germany was suppose to be a state for the Germans...
 

Giladis

Banned
Forget the outside powers, almost all of Slav population in this greater Germany would be up in arms since most of them were exeriencing "national revivals" and such a move would be seen as a way of Germans trying to dominate them even more. Even though beaten in 1848 Hungary probably would not stand for such a thing as it would remove them from an almost equal partner to just another non-germanic state with a significant germanic population.

There would be rebellion on a massive scale with the Hungarian-Slavic block against the Germans, add to that foreign intervention by Russia to help their Slavic brothers and I can't see this state lasting very long.
 
I'm not so sure about a revolt if this Germany is actually liberal. Why would they rise if they have the same rights as any German and are not forced to abandon language and culture? On top of that they might even profit from that move, for Germany's system of education would surely be adopted for the whole empire and greater industralisation would better their station in life.

But well, rationalism and nationalism aren't known to correlate, so you might be right.
 
There are a few big misconceptions floating arouns here:

1) European powers were "expansionist" as a blanket statement, especially within Europe. Bismarck was against taking A-L. Austria couldn't afford to expand. Britain never set foot in Europe. France and Russia were generally conservative in their aims. I see no reason why a liberal state would gallavant off in search of Lebernsraum.

2) Russia was pan-Slavist in the 1840s. Pan-Slavism arose in the 1860s. It subsequently failed, with its tiny artificially-shaped offspring Bulgaria spending much of its early existance resisting Russian influence. In 1914, backing Serbia was a matter of strategy concerning the Straits, Balkans, and Middle East dressed up in Slavic solidarity.Slavic brothers my arse: look at the Polish-Russian brotherly-love fest that took place in 1867. That just goes to show that Orthodoxy was a big part of Pan-Slavism and Russia (which is to say, teh one faction in Russia that is pan-Slavist) doesn't really give a crap about Slovaks.

3) Britain was not isolationist in the 19th Century, we just tended to see binding agreements as restricting and unnecessary because of our supreme security, but we were pretty proactive on many European issues.

As for the question, what will happen if the Frankfurt revolutionaries have for the sake of argument taking over Austria is that being liberal German nationalists they will immediately grants Hungary, Galicia, and Croatia independence. There is no way they could be inspired to keep thousands of nationally self-aware non-Germans with their own liberal revolutionary movements inside their liberal empire.

I have to question whether everyone would dogpile them as quick as people are suggesting. Their physical power is no greater than that of the pretty well permenant Austro-German alliance of later in the century, and this is at a time when Germany is much less of an industrial collosus. Russia, however, would be alarmed not only by the new German blocs physical power but also by it being a child of The Revolution :)eek:!!), nut revolutionary France and Italy and liberal Britain seem less likely to jump in to me.
 

Susano

Banned
Russia, however, would be alarmed not only by the new German blocs physical power but also by it being a child of The Revolution :)eek:!!), nut revolutionary France and Italy and liberal Britain seem less likely to jump in to me.
Yes, Russia will go to war over that if necessary. Hell, even without revolutionary background they were ready to do so IOTL.
 
Forget the outside powers, almost all of Slav population in this greater Germany would be up in arms since most of them were exeriencing "national revivals" and such a move would be seen as a way of Germans trying to dominate them even more. Even though beaten in 1848 Hungary probably would not stand for such a thing as it would remove them from an almost equal partner to just another non-germanic state with a significant germanic population.

There would be rebellion on a massive scale with the Hungarian-Slavic block against the Germans, add to that foreign intervention by Russia to help their Slavic brothers and I can't see this state lasting very long.
Hmm. While I can imagine Hungary, Croatia, and the Galician Poles co-operating, the Czechs and Slovenes don't seem the sort to violently rebel to me and as for Hungary and Slovakia, well, that's a win-lose game.

Yes, Russia will go to war over that if necessary. Hell, even without revolutionary background they were ready to do so IOTL.
Yeah, leaving aside the revolutionary thing, there's the Balkans, the Danube, and the question of what exactly is going to be done with the Galician Poles there to divide Russia and MegaGermany.
 
Well, I think such a Blob will first 'expand' into german areas such as Alsace-Lorraine, Luxemburg (in a way) and POSSIBLY (nice WWI idea here) Switzerland.
After that I can see the Magyars, Slovaks, Yugoslavs and Poles in Gallicia slowly becoming seperate. Slovagallicia instead of Czechoslovakia? Hmm...

I definately can see the rest of the powers trying to stop this blob though, especially if the Swiss WW1 trigger thing was used. Its a central Belgium, cept MUCH MUCH stronger which could be interesting. I doubt the powers would war immediatly on formation of Blob though.

Jim
 

Valdemar II

Banned
If I rememeber correctly this was the Habsburg suggestion for a Greater Germany (under a Habsburg Emperor of course). Would it function? Well yes over 65% of the population would be Germans and that's a conservative estimation. But 1848 is to late for this. The POD would have to be that Francis II was less of a reactionary fanatics, that's not as hard as it sound, Francis was intelligent and in his youth seem to been rather liberal, but 20 years of war and several dead relatives to the forces of liberalism seemed to have a negative effect on him.
 
Top