WI: Great Northern & Spanish Succession Wars converged

Both the Great Northern War and the War of Spanish Succession happened around the start of the 18th century. What if at some point it converged into a single, continental-wide conflict ala Thirty Years War?

What will happen?
 
Interesting idea, though with plausibility issues.

Instead of talking about that right now though, who would be on whose side?
 
If Charles XI had not ended Sweden's alliance with France after the Scanian war, it would probably have been a connected conflict (if it happens, that is). In that case, with French money, the Swedes could have been more active, although the case of some less successful generals in some theaters still appears.

The war, in a Swedish perspective, would then have been as all-out, with enemies all around, as in the post-1715 period, already in 1702 or something. Anyway, without the OTL need to not hurt the Austrian side, the Swedish war would have been largely fought in Germany against Saxony, Brandenburg-Prussia, Denmark, Austria and others, with the advantage of using richer lands for foraging instead of the relative wildernesses in the northeastern regions.

People have claimed that a Swedish participation on either side would have been decisive, but that is not a certainty. The efforts might have bogged down somewhere, and Poltava-style defeats are always possible.

Then we have Russia on the other side, attacking Sweden from the east with numerical superiority, and the king was less interested in countering that. Would Baltic events change at all here?
 
If Charles XI had not ended Sweden's alliance with France after the Scanian war, it would probably have been a connected conflict (if it happens, that is). In that case, with French money, the Swedes could have been more active, although the case of some less successful generals in some theaters still appears.

The war, in a Swedish perspective, would then have been as all-out, with enemies all around, as in the post-1715 period, already in 1702 or something. Anyway, without the OTL need to not hurt the Austrian side, the Swedish war would have been largely fought in Germany against Saxony, Brandenburg-Prussia, Denmark, Austria and others, with the advantage of using richer lands for foraging instead of the relative wildernesses in the northeastern regions.

People have claimed that a Swedish participation on either side would have been decisive, but that is not a certainty. The efforts might have bogged down somewhere, and Poltava-style defeats are always possible.

Then we have Russia on the other side, attacking Sweden from the east with numerical superiority, and the king was less interested in countering that. Would Baltic events change at all here?

Didn't the British send a mission to Stockholm/Carl XII to purposefully ask him to remain out of the war? I vaguely recall reading something like that, but can't remember where I saw it (could've been in a TL on the board, too).
 
Yes, this actually came close to happening. In 1706, Charles had invaded Saxony to force the Elector Augustus to acknowledge his loss of the Polish throne. Having done so, he spent the next year or so with his army in Saxony, contemplating what to do next. He apparently felt that the Emperor Joseph I had been a supporter of Augustus, and also disliked Joseph's religiously intolerant policies towards the Protestants of Silesia and was contemplating joining the war against him on the French side.

The Allies sent Marlborough himself on a diplomatic mission to make sure this didn't happen. Marlborough met Charles in April 1707, and apparently managed to persuade him, through an embarrassing amount of servile flattery and possibly bribes of the Swedish ministers, to go back east and focus on fighting Russia.
 
We get some awesome Sabaton songs about it? :p

More seriously, if we butterfly away Poltava, that alone would have an enormous impact on Northern Europe, delaying the rise of Russian Empire, and the end of the Swedish Empire.
 
Now this could be a very interesting TL. Karl XII would basically be reenacting the actions of Gustav II Adolf during the Thirty year's war. Although the main difference is the lack of support from the Protestant states of the Empire. Prussia isn't likely so support the Swedish without some kind of territorial gain and Saxony is definitely a no-go.

On the other hand, it is possible for Karl to ally with some of the minor states and go to war with the Emperor and Prince-electors. Perhaps a Bavarian uprising could also occur, allowing Maximilian II to return to Munich, opening another front in the war. Assuming that the Swedish are able to repeat at least some of their successes in the Thirty years war, this would basically split the Grand Alliance, as Austria would be dragged into a German campaign, forcing them to withdraw at least some of their forces in Italy and the Low countries.

Depending on just how long the German war lasts, France and Spain might be able to retake control of Italy. There's also the question of what Britain and the Netherlands will do; keep up the Belgian and Spanish campaigns or send aid to their Austrian ally?

A convergence of the two wars would greatly change the dynamic of the Spanish succession conflict, that's for sure, though I don't know if it would allow the Bourbons to win or not.
 
I'd think that almost certainly the British and Dutch are basically going to be trying to get Joseph to make every conceivable concession he can to get Sweden out of the war. Presumably they'd also be courting Peter the Great, the Danes, the Elector of Saxony, and the Polish nobility to make as much trouble as possible for Charles so that he'll turn his attention elsewhere.

What does Charles do if he's invading Bohemia and finds a giant Russian army invading Poland in his rear? Or a Danish attack on either the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp or Scania? Or a Polish rebellion on behalf of Augustus? Or all three at once?

The fear of Peter, in particular, is pretty clearly the main reason Charles didn't go to war with the Emperor in OTL. I'd think you'd almost certainly need a peace between Russia and Sweden for Charles to feel any confidence about intervening in the west.
 
Can't see Carl XII agreeing to that unless he's lobotomized and even then I'd say it's questionable. Look how he kept fighting - and eventually caused the loss of the Swedish empire (by doing so) for the entirety of his reign, even though common sense should've told him to cut his losses in certain places. His Turkish nickname of Ironhead is pretty accurate as far as his stubborness/stupidity is concerned.
 
What does Charles do if he's invading Bohemia and finds a giant Russian army invading Poland in his rear? Or a Danish attack on either the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp or Scania? Or a Polish rebellion on behalf of Augustus? Or all three at once?
He did almost nothing in OTL, say when the Russians were active in Poland during the Swedish occupation of Saxony, or when the Danes attacked in 1709.


The fear of Peter, in particular, is pretty clearly the main reason Charles didn't go to war with the Emperor in OTL. I'd think you'd almost certainly need a peace between Russia and Sweden for Charles to feel any confidence about intervening in the west.
He had been taught not to start any wars. So far I have not encountered any fears from his side regarding Russia, so is there some information around concerning this?
 
In all honesty if he didn't Fear Russia then he was an absolute Moron, considering Russia went on to spend the next century repeatedly smashing Sweden's Face in and taking half their land.

I would say if the Great Northern War and the Spanish Succession Wars did properly converge you just wind up with a quicker end to the Swedish Empire.
 
In all honesty if he didn't Fear Russia then he was an absolute Moron, considering Russia went on to spend the next century repeatedly smashing Sweden's Face in and taking half their land.
It is not necessary to fear your enemies. At Poltava the Swedes seem not to have considered that they might lose the battle. And the lost wars of future generations are only available in hindsight.


I would say if the Great Northern War and the Spanish Succession Wars did properly converge you just wind up with a quicker end to the Swedish Empire.
Why? If Sweden takes part in that war, Sweden would have allies, some of them rich that could pay for Swedish costs.
 
He did almost nothing in OTL, say when the Russians were active in Poland during the Swedish occupation of Saxony, or when the Danes attacked in 1709.

Well, the Russian activities in Poland were why he decided to turn back east and fight the Russians. He may have taken a while, but they certainly influenced his decision making. And the Danes didn't rejoin the war until after Poltava, when Charles no longer had an army and was basically a comfortable prisoner/pensioner of the Sultan, so I'm not sure what he was supposed to do about that.

Perhaps "afraid of Russia" was the wrong word, but certainly the reason he decided not to intervene in the west was because he decided to deal with Peter instead.
 
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