WI: Great Britain suppresses Australian federation.

Sorry but this is possibly the most insane idea I've heard on these boards and as the old joke goes "and that's up against some pretty stiff competition".

Because of their concerns over administrative difficulties of decentralization they decide to shoot everybody with a conflicting opinion? Even the looniest genocidal madmen of history usually had a more rational (evil and unforgivable yes but still more rational) philosophy than that. This has no logic, even twisted logic, to it at all. If the British wanted to prevent independence in 'the colonies' then at the least they'd introduce a couple of other punishments first before just lining everybody up against the wall.

As others have pointed out British policy was contrary to this IOTL, they weren't cartoon villains and I don't think the HRE was held up by Whitehall as a point of comparison worth worrying about.

The halocaust was more sane? I doubt it. The French murdered the Vietnamese with any independence documents. Watch Indochina a people's war in colour. Your right, they would probably introduce policies to reduce the chances of it happening.
 
The halocaust was more sane? I doubt it. The French murdered the Vietnamese with any independence documents. Watch Indochina a people's war in colour. Your right, they would probably introduce policies to reduce the chances of it happening.

Except heres the thing about the Vietnamese, they wheren't white. There was a different standard applied to violence against white christians from what was applied to the colonized natives. And he said "craziest idea I've seen proposed on these forums. No one here is proposing the holocaust, especially since genocide advocacy is banable.
 
Except heres the thing about the Vietnamese, they wheren't white. There was a different standard applied to violence against white christians from what was applied to the colonized natives. And he said "craziest idea I've seen proposed on these forums. No one here is proposing the holocaust, especially since genocide advocacy is banable.

Yeah... He's probably right. I should be banned for this topic and my ip should be banned.
 
Yeah... He's probably right. I should be banned for this topic and my ip should be banned.

You know putting words in his and my mouth is kind of a dick move. All we're saying is that this idea really doesn't hold any kind of water. It's got severe structural problems that can't really be fixed easily. And any fixes to make it like that are so massive that it would totally butterfly the situation to begin with.
 

katchen

Banned
The only way the British would call a halt to Australian federation and Dominion status would be if a dominant faction in Parliament believes that this would become a precedent for home rule for Ireland--which must be stopped at all costs. And the alternative to federation is.... representation in Parliament for Australia and New Zealand, just as Ireland has. Not the continued status quo. But an enlarged Imperium with seats in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords...and probably rollback of Dominion Status for Canada to boot. Now that would make an interesting time line. Go for it.
 
The only way the British would call a halt to Australian federation and Dominion status would be if a dominant faction in Parliament believes that this would become a precedent for home rule for Ireland--which must be stopped at all costs. And the alternative to federation is.... representation in Parliament for Australia and New Zealand, just as Ireland has. Not the continued status quo. But an enlarged Imperium with seats in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords...and probably rollback of Dominion Status for Canada to boot. Now that would make an interesting time line. Go for it.
That's actually, a very good idea, I might start a timeline tomorrow.
 
I quite like the Home Rule angle as a reason for London going mad re the colonies. Quite novel.

As long as the Australasian colonies retain responsible government I don't see them needing to be incorporated into London's parliament. In any event, who could afford to support these MPs in the normal course of events? Many colonial NZ MPs had jobs or businesses they ran most of the time to support themselves, which was often a struggle even with the loose demands of the NZ parliament, let alone having to be in London year around. Either very rich MPs or those paid by the local colony would be needed.

I'd think Britain would just create a loose Australasian Council to co-ordiante what needed to be co-ordinated, where they very firmly kept the colonies under their thumb.
 
Thank you eliphas8 for recognizing my point. Grimdalus, if the British were going to take a hardline over Australian federation then your suggestion that their first step would be to summarily execute everyone who even discussed the idea is insane. The British never attempted anything like that to quell dissent anywhere in the Empire at any time, so why would they in this case?

I certainly have not suggested you be banned, but I do suggest you take some time to think before getting on to the keyboard.
 
Completely ASB. The British, like most empires, held the native people they conquered and their own settlers in completely different lights. The latter were seen merely as Englishmen living abroad. Anyway, by the late 19th century, gunning any people down en masse for demanding more political rights tended to be frowned upon, if it happened somewhere where the papers could hear about it anyway.

Any way, how exactly have the British gone from "supporting federation" to "killing anyone who supports federation?" It...makes......no sense.
 
I would also appear that in TTL the British learned nothing from the American rebellion and how they mismanaged in the lead up to it. However, as a nation of shopkeepers, I think at some point someone would suggest that it would be easier and cheaper to adopt some form of decentralized relation between the Mother Country and her colonies - the British taxpayer isn't going to pay to permanently police the Empire.
 

katchen

Banned
Unless of course Australia, with 9 million British subjects elects 1/5 of the House of Commons and New Zealand with 1 million British subjects another 1/50th of the Members, with appropriate Peerages for the House of Lords. And Australia construed to be the Largest of the British Isles.
The Round Table is not wrong. With the telegraph and the telephone (and radio in a few years) it is quite feasible for Australia and New Zealand to be part of the Westminister System. And since the possibility of Federation is coming up with Australia, Australia is the place to make Imperial expansion work and show that it can work--on the exact other side of the planet!
The advantage of Australia is that it's almost 100% white (sorry Cecil Rhodes & Lionel Curtis) which avoids the issue of bringing nonwhite voters into the Mother of Parliaments. And it's standard of living is as high as the Mother Country. And Australia has plenty of room for expansion and growth. Which is the real problem with Britain and Ireland. The two islands are hemmed in by water and are close to their perceived population limits. And Great Britain, long since surpassed in population by the United States is no longer looking so "great". So expansion rather than independence for Australia which amounts to contraction of opportunities for British (since independence or even dominion status allows Australia to impose immigration restrictions on incoming Brits) is the way to go. And build on this to bring in Canada and the West Indies and maybe Pacific and Indian Ocean islands in a few more years. Cape Colony and Natal may be too alien and too Dutch.
 
Unless of course Australia, with 9 million British subjects elects 1/5 of the House of Commons and New Zealand with 1 million British subjects another 1/50th of the Members, with appropriate Peerages for the House of Lords. And Australia construed to be the Largest of the British Isles.
The Round Table is not wrong. With the telegraph and the telephone (and radio in a few years) it is quite feasible for Australia and New Zealand to be part of the Westminister System. And since the possibility of Federation is coming up with Australia, Australia is the place to make Imperial expansion work and show that it can work--on the exact other side of the planet!
The advantage of Australia is that it's almost 100% white (sorry Cecil Rhodes & Lionel Curtis) which avoids the issue of bringing nonwhite voters into the Mother of Parliaments. And it's standard of living is as high as the Mother Country. And Australia has plenty of room for expansion and growth. Which is the real problem with Britain and Ireland. The two islands are hemmed in by water and are close to their perceived population limits. And Great Britain, long since surpassed in population by the United States is no longer looking so "great". So expansion rather than independence for Australia which amounts to contraction of opportunities for British (since independence or even dominion status allows Australia to impose immigration restrictions on incoming Brits) is the way to go. And build on this to bring in Canada and the West Indies and maybe Pacific and Indian Ocean islands in a few more years. Cape Colony and Natal may be too alien and too Dutch.

There could never be imperial federation without blatant White Supremacy laws, as there would otherwise be no good reason to exclude India. Seems like a steep price to pay, and even the racist 19th century British population would know that such an extreme policy wouldn't be based on racial reality, but be just an excuse to exclude the subcontinent. Alternatively they could give territories each one vote rather than basing it on population, but then the UK could quickly be outvoted by its far smaller dependencies, which wouldn't work or be fair. And any scenario where the UK automatically got far more votes would eventually be rejected by its white dominions, which wouldn't accept a permanent lesser status.

I've read books, I know British policy makers at various points in the 19th century did consider imperial federation schemes, but none were ever seriously proposed, likely for the reasons I've outlined above.
 

katchen

Banned
And yet excluding India was just what Lionel Curtis and the Round Table was proposing at the time. And nobody batted an eyelash. People were racist as a matter of course 100 years ago.:(
 
There could never be imperial federation without blatant White Supremacy laws, as there would otherwise be no good reason to exclude India.
Not necessarily. If you can simultaneously have some colonial possessions as self-governing dominions and others ruled from London without white supremacy laws, it stands to reason you can do the same with imperial federation. For much of the 19th century the franchise was a privilege to be earned rather than a right to be demanded, so having some colonies represented and some not is not intrinsically more problematic than having some men with votes and some without.

The only snag comes when India does reach the stage at which it's obvious it has earned it. At which point, London simply offers them the choice between being an independent self-governing dominion in a much looser Commonwealth-like entity, or a part of a tighter imperial federation with the other white states. I can't see India or, indeed, many of the other colonies taking the former option, and the problem is solved without formal white supremacist legislation.
 
Unless of course Australia, with 9 million British subjects elects 1/5 of the House of Commons and New Zealand with 1 million British subjects another 1/50th of the Members, with appropriate Peerages for the House of Lords. And Australia construed to be the Largest of the British Isles.
The Round Table is not wrong. With the telegraph and the telephone (and radio in a few years) it is quite feasible for Australia and New Zealand to be part of the Westminister System. And since the possibility of Federation is coming up with Australia, Australia is the place to make Imperial expansion work and show that it can work--on the exact other side of the planet!
The advantage of Australia is that it's almost 100% white (sorry Cecil Rhodes & Lionel Curtis) which avoids the issue of bringing nonwhite voters into the Mother of Parliaments. And it's standard of living is as high as the Mother Country. And Australia has plenty of room for expansion and growth. Which is the real problem with Britain and Ireland. The two islands are hemmed in by water and are close to their perceived population limits. And Great Britain, long since surpassed in population by the United States is no longer looking so "great". So expansion rather than independence for Australia which amounts to contraction of opportunities for British (since independence or even dominion status allows Australia to impose immigration restrictions on incoming Brits) is the way to go. And build on this to bring in Canada and the West Indies and maybe Pacific and Indian Ocean islands in a few more years. Cape Colony and Natal may be too alien and too Dutch.

Natal was basically England in the tropics.

Natal was never very Afrikaans.

If Canada etc are brought into some imperial federation, the Cape Colony and Natal will definitely be included too.
 
Imperial federation was a pipe dream really. There are too many opposing forces to make it work well enough during the time it came closest to political feasability to be effective. To do it properly would require a vast body of on-going effort that I do not think the 19th century British state or the colonies had the means or will to achieve.

I do think that a glorified Commonwealth that shares features of the EU/EEC could work though, so less political union than shared institutions and forums for co-ordination. These didn't really exist IOTL empire, everyone just hived off the central institutions of the Westminster government.

If there was a well staffed and resourced Commonwealth Secretariat, an Imperial Defence Council, etc etc reporting to all parliaments from an early period (late 19th century), then that could build a closer empire, which is about as close as I think would be practical. Perhaps borrow the idea of an Imperial Tariff to fund these institutions?
 
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