WI: Grant comes east in 1862, Pope stays west

Add that to the fact that Grant will be under considerable pressure to attack immediately (he will most likely not have time to organize his staff the way he would like) and McClellan is still going to be sulking like OTL, you get a recipe for a real sucker punch to Grant's career.

Grant might start off spectacularly, but Lee will stalemate him somewhere, and has the capability (unlike in 1864) to launch a wide ranging counter attack which could throw Grant off balance. Cue a long line of jealous subordinates blaming everything on Grant.

Grant could win the resulting campaign, but the poisonous atmosphere of intrigue and petty rivalry would really throw the Union army off balance, which is a boon to Lee and no one else. Most likely the army's confidence in Grant is shattered and Lincoln may then be forced to replace him.

Jackson still has a bit of free reign around early 1862 does he not. Yes, he is still under Lee's command, but rather independent in his approach. Might be a Grant/Jackson battle somewhere if possible.
 
Add that to the fact that Grant will be under considerable pressure to attack immediately (he will most likely not have time to organize his staff the way he would like) and McClellan is still going to be sulking like OTL, you get a recipe for a real sucker punch to Grant's career.

Grant might start off spectacularly, but Lee will stalemate him somewhere, and has the capability (unlike in 1864) to launch a wide ranging counter attack which could throw Grant off balance. Cue a long line of jealous subordinates blaming everything on Grant.

Grant could win the resulting campaign, but the poisonous atmosphere of intrigue and petty rivalry would really throw the Union army off balance, which is a boon to Lee and no one else. Most likely the army's confidence in Grant is shattered and Lincoln may then be forced to replace him.

Not likely, when has Grant's confidence ever been shattered? Even if he just stalemates Lee his going to do a lot better than Pope and he will not retreat. Grant was a fighter and Lincoln needed that. I don't think Grant would be replaced anytime soon afterwards.
 
So is Grant likely to try for an early Overland Campaign or will Lee get a jump on him? And how is Pope going to do against Price and Van Dorn?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
If Grant has the same sort of smaller, detached force

So is Grant likely to try for an early Overland Campaign or will Lee get a jump on him? And how is Pope going to do against Price and Van Dorn?

If Grant has the same sort of smaller, detached force that Pope had, he will dig in and hold on, probably not unlike Shiloh.

McClellan, presumably, either gets with the program and orders his units forward to support in a more timely fashion or - miracle of miracles - actually leads his army into combat and hits Lee in the flank while Grant is holding him by the nose?

Oh heck, what am I thinking? It's McClellan.

My bet would be Grant holds off Lee (thus preventing the Antietam campaign)and so comes off the better in the "internal" wrangle than McClellan (who may get shipped somewhere; the Dakotas, maybe;)), and Grant gets the consolidated army/army group command in Virginia, and gets enough time after this defensive victory and command shuffle to actually make his mark on the AotP/AoV conglomeration (perhaps bringing in some more westerners, or at least picking the best of the AoTP regulars and disposing of some of the lesser lights)...

Sometime late in 1862, Grant begins an equivalent of the Overland, moving river line by river line.

In the west, its an interesting question if Halleck stays at the theater level and Sherman gets the Army of the Tennessee; Buell, Rosecrans, and Thomas presumably are in the deck as well. Pope may stay on the river and become the "riverine" warfare expert.

Best,
 
Jackson still has a bit of free reign around early 1862 does he not. Yes, he is still under Lee's command, but rather independent in his approach. Might be a Grant/Jackson battle somewhere if possible.

Assuming this is after Shiloh, we have no reason to believe that Jackson's Valley Campaign would go too differently so by TTL's June Jackson would be under Lee's command as part of his army.

Not likely, when has Grant's confidence ever been shattered? Even if he just stalemates Lee his going to do a lot better than Pope and he will not retreat. Grant was a fighter and Lincoln needed that. I don't think Grant would be replaced anytime soon afterwards.

I think you misunderstand, I mean the army's confidence in Grant would be shattered. It's not impossible for Grant to be defeated by Lee (and indeed with the poisonous combination of an inactive McClellan and Lee with a far deeper reserve to draw upon its quite possible) which might in turn shake Lincolns confidence in this new general.

I think we can all agree that without a doubt Lee was a tactical (yet importantly not strategic) genius. In tandem with Jackson there was only one team which could beat them on the battlefield, Grant and Sherman. Unfortunately Grant doesn't have Sherman here, but a rather underwhelming combination of subordinates.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's an element to Grant's and Sherman's achievements than can't be overlooked

There's an element to Grant's and Sherman's achievements than can't be overlooked; namely their family and political connections in Ohio.

Grant was tied closely to the Washburne/Washburn family; Sherman, obviously, to the Ewings.

The Washburns numbered (among other achievements) four members of Congress, one who rose to the Senate and another as governor of Maine; the Ewings included a former senator and Cabinet minister. Not quite the McCooks, but not exactly without the ability to get things done in Columbus - and Washington.

Best,
 
There's an element to Grant's and Sherman's achievements than can't be overlooked; namely their family and political connections in Ohio.

Grant was tied closely to the Washburne/Washburn family; Sherman, obviously, to the Ewings.

The Washburns numbered (among other achievements) four members of Congress, one who rose to the Senate and another as governor of Maine; the Ewings included a former senator and Cabinet minister. Not quite the McCooks, but not exactly without the ability to get things done in Columbus - and Washington.

Best,

There is also the fact that because Grant was a real fighter who took orders without complaint and worked with what he had instead of constantly screaming for reinforcements became quickly a favorite of Lincoln whose opinion matter the most.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There is that:

There is also the fact that because Grant was a real fighter who took orders without complaint and worked with what he had instead of constantly screaming for reinforcements became quickly a favorite of Lincoln whose opinion matter the most.


There is that:;)

Best,
 
Hard to say. I will say that it's probably worse for Grant than OTL in a number of ways. First, he won't have the carte blanche that he got in 1864 in OTL. He will have a leash, and he won't be in overall command. He will be subject to the petty rivalries of McClellan and the others, including Halleck, who could be a nasty SoB when he chose to be. Not to mention that Halleck had already tried to sabotage Grant's career (unknown to him at the time) because he feared that Grant would overshadow him. Based upon these things, Grant cannot afford any major defeats, which is by no means certain. Make no mistake, the ANV at this point is loaded with talent at most levels. The command that Grant would take would be a mixed bunch. I can see it going both ways. On one hand, I have a hard time seeing Grant leaving Buford out to dry at Throughfare Gap and thus allowing Longstreet to get in his flank and rear. I also have a hard time seeing Grant let himself get strung out and disorganized looking for Jackson in the early stages of 2nd Bull Run like Pope. On the other, the forces that Grant has are far inferior to those that he had in the West and the ones he inherited when he came East in '64. I think a stalemate is most likely. That favors Grant, because within the Lincoln Administration, there was a massive amount of anger at Little Mac for seeming to drag his feet to go and help Pope at Bull Run. The only reason that he got command over both the AotP and AoV was that Pope had been disgraced due to getting crushed at Bull Run, leaving no viable alternative for Lee's invasion that fall. Assuming that Mac is slow to help again, and Grant manages to wrestle a draw out of it, then I think Grant's star rises at the cost of McClellan's. After that, it's hard to say what happens.
 
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