WI Graf Zeppelin was completed?
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The Japanese wouldn't have wanted it, their own carrier designs were far better...
If the Soviets got it, some Stukas would've just turned it into a blockship or navigational obstacle early on...
All they need to do is complete that 3m gauge Breitspurbahn, load it up, and good to go! 🤪
they had lots of practice with all those big siege cannons.......later could be used to move the Mause around.
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There is some decent reading on this, I'll dig through it and post if I can find the time.
A couple of quick thoughts* though though:
1. A CV sitting in Norway would be a very serious threat to arctic convoys.
2. A CV in the Baltic area would be quite useful for ground support, and could wreck havoc with later Soviet offensives. The Soviets generally only held air superiority when heavily concentrated or when the Germand couldn't stage aircraft to a region. Of course, this changed in the very late war following the allies smashing the Luftwaffe over France and Germany.
3. The RN, specifically the carriers of the RN, didnt really employ massed air strikes in the way of the IJN until the very late war. With the GAA putting up strikes of 10-25 AC at a time, mostly of fairly tepid types, the fighters from GZ would have a lot of potential when defending against sea based RN airpower. Of course, if the German ships are attacked by land based aircraft then the GZs fighters are vastly less useful, and against a massed airstrike of the type the late war USN could direct (or the early war IJN) the GZ would have been nearly helpless.
It's worth noting that the US and IJN both planned on their carriers fighting carriers primarily. The RN and Germans really didnt intend for this so much, using them to extend fighter coverage, launch raids, etc, but not really planning on, or building for, serious Carrier to Carrier combat. Thus, comparing the European CVs to the Pacific power CVs is really not comparing between the same intended product. The RN did have Ark Royal as a Pacific/Massed strike CV, but the RAF so screwed the FAA that she still wasnt going to be especially competitive with say, Kido Butai boats.
*These are items that occurred to me, not cited German naval plans
Well, it's the Nazi's, so the chance of them doing crazy would be high.
Would they be crazy enough to send her on a raid on her own?
I don't think 40 planes will make much of a difference. And wouldn't she be a sitting duck for a soviet submarine during this?
I don't see them selling it to the Italians: how is going to get there.
Bartering to the Soviets is a nice idea. Maybe Graf Zeppelin could give the Soviets some artillery support during the siege of Leningrad?
In a really fringe, near ASB scenario where the Germans (probably Notzis tbh) somehow manage to secure a peace treaty in 1940 to early 41, she would have had a valuable career as a testbed to establish carrier doctrine and work out kinks with KM design of same. That said, advancing aerospace tech means she’s obsolete by the second half of the 40s, early 50s at best. But she’s great for cutting the Germans teeth so they can build a decent 2nd generation design. You’d need Goring to either die, or for the LW to somehow lose enough prestige and power relative to the KM that the later is able to secure the existence of a naval aviation force to get maximum, if still limited use out of her.
OTL, as mentioned up thread, she’s a ‘insert allied nation highest medal for valor here’ waiting to happen.
OTL, as mentioned up thread, she’s a ‘insert allied nation highest medal for valor here’ waiting to happen.
thaddeus
Donor
yeah, I took some liberties with the timeline from OP, meant to transfer to Italy pre-war, if bartered to the Soviets one could assume possibly to make good on some of the trade deals they had made and/or obtain more raw materials?
Plus the FAA preferred to attack by night.
OTOH 6 or 8 planes would be enough to drive off shadowing LRMP aircraft which would make it harder for the British to find and track her. If they don't know where she is they can't send their aircraft carriers to attack her.
It would have a destroyer screen in the areas where British submarine attacks were likely, i.e. when in transit from Germany to Norway and in the vicinity of French Atlantic ports. There weren't any operating in the GIUK Gap or North Atlantic. Plus they'd probably do what the British did and have a few torpedo bombers in the air to keep the any enemy submarines that might be in the area submerged, but I admit that that was a tactic that didn't save Ark Royal, Eagle and Glorious.
It wouldn't be invulnerable to submarine attack in the areas where British submarines actually operated, but it wouldn't be as easy as you suggest.
With regards to points one and three, a CV sitting in Norway would be a very high priority target and the RN was quite capable of pulling in every available carrier for a one off maximum effort attack if they saw the need. Pulling Ark Royal from Gibraltar for a couple of weeks while she joins whatever carriers are operational in British waters to take out GZ would be a very attractive option if it ultimately released ships from the Arctic convoys for other duties.
Also if the Germans complete GZ and get her operational then work on Implacable and Indefatigable either doesn't get suspended or restarted much sooner than OTL which would make a large difference to Britain's carrier shortage in the middle war years.
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The Arctic convoy attacks make a lot more sense than sorties into the Atlantic. The GZ is still vulnerable, the loss of assorted German ships in the Arctic naval battles demonstrates this. But, theres a better chance of inflicting commensurate damage on the enemy.
Against the USSR is liable to be a low cost low results thing. The only possibility of a large pay off is if Germany conducts some sort of larger scale amphib op in June or July 1941, say capturing the Estonian ports to improve the logistics of AG North.
One other use has occurred to me. That is ambushing the many reconnaissance flights, service flights to Sweden, and ASW flights across the North Sea. To improve chances of survival the missions would be two stage. First a regular picket is established with air search radar. Destroyers in combination with light cruisers & similar fast craft would be used. This would take station irregularly for three to five days a week and build up knowledge of the British flight patters, and response. Once there is some confidence for a interception the GZ sorties and launches a intercept when the picket advises. If radar guidance to intercept is required its done by the picket or another auxiliary. The GZ needs to stay EMCON. Since Brit operating losses over this sea approached 5% from weather, engine failure, & other mishaps a number of high value aircraft & missions can be eliminated before the Brits catch on. After they figure it out they are still dealing with the problem of getting a good location & attack on.
Anyway, if the GZ is bushwhacking arctic convoys and Coastal Command on the far side of the North Sea it will draw RN & RAF attention away from other matters.
I'm sceptical too. However, back in October 1935 it was planned to have Graff Zeppelin completed in April 1939 and they did manage to launch her in December 1938 several months before Bismarck and Tirpitz.
Although she wasn't the best aircraft carrier ever designed she's still better than no aircraft carrier and has an air group of 14 Bf109s and 28 Fi167s or Ju87s. The air group actually existed IOTL because the Luftwaffe had one Bf109 and 2 Ju87 aircraft carrier squadrons when war broke out and doubled this force before the end of 1939. They weren't converted to ordinary fighter and dive bomber squadrons until after the Kriegsmarine suspended Graff Zeppelin.
With some jiggery pokery such as giving her priority over Tirpitz, Lutzow and Seydlitz they might be able to complete her before the end of 1939. If we make the POD November 1935 which was when the ship was ordered it would be possible for the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine to send personnel to Japan to learn aircraft carrier operations from the Japanese which would help when working up the ship. In spite of that she won't be operational until at least January 1941 (due to the reasons that will be sent in reply to this post) which would enable her to take part in Operation Berlin with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
According to Whitley in German Capital Ships of World War II the OTL squadron's operational orders were to make pincer attacks on convoys to maximise the chance of success. It was anticipated that weakly escorted convoys would scatter on the appearance of the battleships so the aim was to cripple as many merchantmen as possible so that they could be sunk at leisure later.
The presence of Graff Zeppelin would make it easier to find the convoys. Once a convoy was found found her aircraft would find and cripple individual merchantmen which the battleships could finish off. If the convoys that they found were more heavily escorted (which is what happened IOTL) Graff Zeppelin could use her strike aircraft to knock out the escort. They don't have to sink Malaya, Ramilles and Rodney they just have to significantly reduce their maximum speeds so that The Twins can attack the convoy without fear of being engaged by the escorting battleship.
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Having it train in the Baltic leads to Sweden getting anoyed and calling the Germans: Could you please stop exercising against our fishing boats. They are a bit tired of beeing targets for you.
And UK will try to send subs into the Baltic.
If the ships is floating in 1944 then the Russian subs will hunt for her.
And UK will try to send subs into the Baltic.
If the ships is floating in 1944 then the Russian subs will hunt for her.
I guess the pickets will be noticed by the reconnaissance flights as well, and possibly raise the question what they are doing.
It's going to be used to attack merchant shipping, should it escape into the Atlantic successfully.
Seeing carrier-based aircraft used to attack merchant shipping would be interesting, did the USN do anything like that in the Pacific against Japanese shipping? I'm only aware of submarines being used. I'd imagine it could be quite effective though, especially the first few times.
Seeing carrier-based aircraft used to attack merchant shipping would be interesting, did the USN do anything like that in the Pacific against Japanese shipping? I'm only aware of submarines being used. I'd imagine it could be quite effective though, especially the first few times.
An operation Source or Operation Tungsten type attack is more likely to sink the ship than it did with Tirpitz
As I cannot see it being ready in time to deploy to the West coast of France before Operation Cerberus saw the main surface units of the KM abandon those bases - so it will likely be paired with Tirpitz in Norway and subject to the same limitations
Therefore I cannot see it sortieing into the Atlantic but it would be used to interdict the Arctic convoys making more aircover necessary for those convoys until she is dealt with.
Like Tirpitz her Bark would be bigger than her Bite
As I cannot see it being ready in time to deploy to the West coast of France before Operation Cerberus saw the main surface units of the KM abandon those bases - so it will likely be paired with Tirpitz in Norway and subject to the same limitations
Therefore I cannot see it sortieing into the Atlantic but it would be used to interdict the Arctic convoys making more aircover necessary for those convoys until she is dealt with.
Like Tirpitz her Bark would be bigger than her Bite