WI: Germany unified at the same time as France and England?

Eurofed

Banned
They had no right to have the title. The Germans were not apart of the Roman Empire. It was their fault that the Roman Empire fell anyway. It should have been given to the Italians. At least they were actually descended from the Romans.

After Charlemagne reinvented the Roman ideal for Western Europe, Germans fully shared in it. Anyway, the Roman ideal of a transnational civilization-polity that mastered unity in diversity belonged to all European peoples that embraced it, and to none exclusively. To pervert it for the sake of nationalism was the aberration of Italian fascism.
 
They had no right to have the title. The Germans were not apart of the Roman Empire. It was their fault that the Roman Empire fell anyway. It should have been given to the Italians. At least they were actually descended from the Romans.

I don't think that many people saw things in that way at the time. The whole Imperial thing was more about Charlemagne's heritage anyway, those who really claimed descent from the Romans, or better said, claimed to BE the Romans, were the Byzantines, and with good points. A good chunk of Italian nobility was of at least partial Germanic descent in any case (Longobardians mostly I suppose) and felt no particular loyalty to any Italian "nation" at start. There were some Kings of Italy who actually tried to claim the Imperial crown, and were defeated, but I doubt there was much Roman blood in their veins, for what mattered (did anybody care?).
 
How did London become the capital of England then? The capital of Wessex is Winchester. Where King Alfred was from.

I'm not very good at English history of the time, but after Alfred a lot of things happened in England and if my memeory is correct Wessex ceased to be the powerbase of the English kings. Also, i'm not sure Alfred kingship was recognized in York. I think that London was definitevely settled as the capital around the times of William the Conqueror but i'm sure on it.
 
I'm not very good at English history of the time, but after Alfred a lot of things happened in England and if my memeory is correct Wessex ceased to be the powerbase of the English kings. Also, i'm not sure Alfred kingship was recognized in York. I think that London was definitevely settled as the capital around the times of William the Conqueror but i'm sure on it.


Somewhat earlier I think.

The point was that for a century or more after Alfred, the main threat to England came from Scandinavia, so that the king neded a base in the eastern counties. Winchester made sense when the West Saxons were pushing back the ancient Brits, but not against the Vikings.

OTOH one probably shouldn't make too much of it, as royal courts in that era were very peripatetic, and the notion of a fixed, permanent "capital" only developed gradually. England probably wasn't thought of as having one until about the 13C.
 
If you look down the list of where the Roman emperor's originated, the contention that there is such a thing as "Roman blood" looks a bit silly.

Ohmigosh I sort of agreed with Eurofed. Damage control!

After Charlemagne reinvented the Roman ideal for Western Europe, Germans fully shared in it. Anyway, the Roman ideal of a transnational civilization-polity that mastered unity in diversity belonged to all European peoples that embraced it, and to none exclusively. To pervert it for the sake of nationalism was the aberration of Italian fascism.

Now, as you can imagine I have a more cynical view of the 'Roman ideal' and similar visions (world peace and harmony through violence and oppression! Rich and powerful of all countries, unite!), but what about the Roman Province of Africa? Can they not join in?
 
The emperors rather then the Church eventually triumphing in the Investiture Controversy could have led somewhere, though more likely to a stronger and more unified HRE, as mentioned previously, than a unified Germany as such. The viewpoint of the emperors, often neglected due to the "obvious" justice of the Church making its own appointments, was that the major bishops and abbots were great temporal lords (and, whisper it, mainly functioned as such) as well as spiritual leaders, and important imperial counsellors, so it was right for the imperium to have a say in their appointments.

The Church however as it so often did dressed up a political power-grab in spiritual clothing. It didn't invariably win but on this occasion was successful, to the great weakening of imperial authority. Reverse that and the Empire in general and Germany in particular might never have fragmented to the same extent. Italy can be divested later, to give a more wholly German character to the Empire. Which I do regard as legitimately holding the title in addition to the Eastern Empire. There was even a former capital of the Western Empire on German soil, Trier. For sentiment's sake, that could be the choice for the capital of the eventual new Germany.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Now, as you can imagine I have a more cynical view of the 'Roman ideal' and similar visions (world peace and harmony through violence and oppression! Rich and powerful of all countries, unite!), but what about the Roman Province of Africa? Can they not join in?

Of course. Even the OTL Roman polity embraced North Africa and Middle East. It's just that "all European, North African, and Middle Eastern" peoples is a bit mouthful. But potentially the 'Roman ideal' had a worldwide reach.
 
The emperors rather then the Church eventually triumphing in the Investiture Controversy could have led somewhere, though more likely to a stronger and more unified HRE, as mentioned previously, than a unified Germany as such. The viewpoint of the emperors, often neglected due to the "obvious" justice of the Church making its own appointments, was that the major bishops and abbots were great temporal lords (and, whisper it, mainly functioned as such) as well as spiritual leaders, and important imperial counsellors, so it was right for the imperium to have a say in their appointments.

The Church however as it so often did dressed up a political power-grab in spiritual clothing. It didn't invariably win but on this occasion was successful, to the great weakening of imperial authority. Reverse that and the Empire in general and Germany in particular might never have fragmented to the same extent. Italy can be divested later, to give a more wholly German character to the Empire. Which I do regard as legitimately holding the title in addition to the Eastern Empire. There was even a former capital of the Western Empire on German soil, Trier. For sentiment's sake, that could be the choice for the capital of the eventual new Germany.

Trier has a chance, but the actual importance in Middle Ages would have had more significance. Aachen was the "capital" of the Carolingian Empire without having been a capital in Roman times. Koln is also a possibility. In general, I'd say that either the center of the unifying duchy or mark becomes the capital, or an already rich and important city is chosen, which means probably somewhere Rhineland or Bavaria/Austria.
My main candidates would be:
Aachen
Frankfurt
Koln
Mainz
Nurnberg
Regensburg
Trier

less likely:
Metz
Hamburg
Salzburg
Strassburg
Stuttgart
Ulm

possible but quite unlikely:
Bamberg
Brunswick
Meissen
Fulda
Vienna

very unlikely, almost ASB:

Bruxelles
Prague
 
So how large would the HRE/Germany have gotten if the emperors had triumphed over the church? Could it have moved east or try to gobbel up France? How long would it last to the 1800s as OTL or to modern day?
 
Quite a bit of what we think of as having always been France was then in the Empire anyway. I doubt the Empire however strong and successful it became would have tried to absorb the rest of France, but France's steady growth and acquisition of western Imperial territories might well have been hindered or even baulked altogether. Expansion eastwards, who can say? Too many variables over too long a time. Likewise for the Empire enduring to the 1800s, which it did in reality albeit in far looser form, or longer, even to today.
 

abc123

Banned
Maybe a POD for Habsburgs victory in 30-years war?
And then they unite Germany?

Wienna or Prague as a capital?
 
@abc123:

True, Ferdinand II had openly declared the foundation of a more powerful hereditary Empire "as in France or Spain" one of his goals in the TYW.

However, I would really like to know how that should be achievable when
- Wallenstein, his best general, and
- Maximillian of Bavaria, his most important and only solvent ally in the Empire
are imperial princes staunchly defending and expanding their privileges.
 

abc123

Banned
@abc123:

True, Ferdinand II had openly declared the foundation of a more powerful hereditary Empire "as in France or Spain" one of his goals in the TYW.

However, I would really like to know how that should be achievable when
- Wallenstein, his best general, and
- Maximillian of Bavaria, his most important and only solvent ally in the Empire
are imperial princes staunchly defending and expanding their privileges.


Victory first, reforms later.
;)
 
I fully agree that getting rid of Italy would do the trick. It's important though, IMHO, to point out that this isn't about Italy - Germany can centralize and at the same time hold non-German territories, for example Lotharingia. The point is that the pope is in Italy and the imperial title is to be taken in Rome. The pope and the empire where a burden for Germany. Interestingly, in the early days the main interest of the Emperors in Italy was to provide trade routes from Venice into Germany. If the German kings manage to hold and control what is latter known as Terra Ferma, providing a land bridge between Venice and Germany, but at the same time are able to stay out of inner-Italian conflicts as far as possible and do not hold the title of Emperor, it would work.
 
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