WI: Germany returns to pre 1871 boarders after ww1

longsword14

Banned
But would one side really accept a system that they would always lose?
The most importance question for any German political movement would be to overcome division and repudiate any provision put upon them by outside powers. It is not about haggling for funds over each party's pet projects; the Democratic and Republican comparison is simply wrong in this case.
 
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The point was that unification was achieved by Prussian arms. Getting the country to unite is another matter. Its not that these movements would be provincial in nature but that they would put their own interests ahead of everything. Using American politics for an example: The Democrats tend to win in big states while the Republicans sweep the sparsely populated rural states We have the compromise House and Senate. But would one side really accept a system that they would always lose?


They'd soon close ranks if some stinking foreigner tried to compel the states to dissolve the Union and be separate countries.
 
I was only toying with an idea along theses lines at weekend - coincidentally.

For my still born expansionist France AH I needed to butterfly away the 500lb German gorilla in room and best solution was multiple Germanys - I was going to be lazy and use the real life lande boundaries
 
While there are strong regional identities often associated with the different states, a strong national identity, nationalism and the experience of a lost world war would lead to a reunification. Ideological differences could delay it (maybe even for decades if we look at BRD and DDR during the Cold War).

Germany wasn't made up of nations but of the realms of whoever happened to call himself the local sovereign. The only regions that have a national identity other than German are Bavaria, maybe Württemberg and parts of Prussia.

The statement about few strong regional national identities is misleading. We see in the time period under examination the coexistence of regional identities (or better regional nationalism) and German nationalism, since often people where strong nationalists with a strong regional identity at the same time. For example large areas of the former kingdom of Hannover elected their own separate conservative party (Deutsch-Hannoversche Partei, after 1945 Deutsche Partei) until the first decades after WW2, since they where unhappy with the annexation through Prussia after the war of 1866. Even today many people in the southwest of Baden-Württemberg identify with the former grand duchy of Baden and use their old flag. (There are also anthems for various regions of Germany, which are in some regions still in informal use)

The point was that unification was achieved by Prussian arms. Getting the country to unite is another matter. Its not that these movements would be provincial in nature but that they would put their own interests ahead of everything. Using American politics for an example: The Democrats tend to win in big states while the Republicans sweep the sparsely populated rural states We have the compromise House and Senate. But would one side really accept a system that they would always lose?

While the unification was indeed a result of Prussian arms, it was also the result of the existence of German Nationalism before the existence of a unified Germany.
A unified and strong Germany was one of the key demands of the 1848/49 revolutions. Many people who supported the 1848/49 revolutions supported the German Unification. Maybe the new empire was not as democratic as they hoped for, but at least it was strong and fulfilled many of their nationalistic dreams. There was also in the 1830ies a fear, that France would threaten the German Rhine, which resulted in anti-french propaganda in many parts of Germany. (Such fears for the borders could lead to a reunification in your scenario, if your France adopts expressionistic policies)

I doubt that comparisons to the USA are useful. We have different groups, parties and traditions (stronger socialist groups, monarchist reactionaries, and so on). You have a political system which favored the dominance of two parties in the US. In Germany we see between 1871 and today a plurality of different political parties, which are often connected to their own milieu (for example SPD - worker party, Zentrum - catholics ...) . Also there are differences between federalism in the USA and in Germany. The biggest problem (in OTL) was a too big Prussia inside a federal system.

From an economic perspective such a balkanisation is unsustainable. Baden or Württemberg are not big enough to be economic self sufficient. While it is common in Alternate History (written by people unfamiliar with the region) that Bavaria simply annexes Baden and Württemberg, a confederation between them seems more likely, since no one in Baden or Württemberg identifies with Bavaria (for example protestant rural areas in Württemberg could have a problem with a catholic monarch).
Even before the political unification happened, the Zollverein was basically a free trade area between most of the German States. Germany in 1918 is far more industrialized than pre1871 Germany.

If you really want to balkanize Germany, use slightly different borders than the 1871 borders. An independent Hannover could be possible. The Rhineland should be separated from Prussia. You could enlarge Hessen-Darmstadt with Hessen-Kassel (annexed by Prussia in 1866). Thuringia should be unified.

It should be mentioned, that there is a cultural divide between Northern and Southern Germany, and that there are nationalist conceptions of Germany in the 19 century which are anticatholic. But you need an earlier POD to use this religious differences to split Germany.

Communism:
- External: Soviet Union wins against Poland -> threatens East Prussia (a common scenario); Hungary can't do anything since it is probably at war with Romania (even if we consider butterflies). Who should invade Germany? Only if a communist revolution occurs in France, France could decide to export Communism into a weakened Germany.
- Internal: Communist uprisings could happen in most of the different balkanized states. But such uprisings would face serious resistance from conservative militias. Violent internal conflicts between monarchists, republicans, socialists, communists and protofacists could occur in the different states.

If one of the German states would face an invasion, other states would help, as long as the ideological differences aren't to severe. Nationalistic volunteer militias would travel from one state to another. But a Germany which lost WW1 is to weakened to fight wars against foreign enemies.

It is also necessary to mention, that German nationalism completely changed after WW2. Today mostly the AfD (right wing populist party) uses traditional (and toxic) concepts of German Nationalism (while German Nationalism and Patriotism is in most of its forms highly problematic), which where more mainstream hundred years ago.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
... concepts of German Nationalism (while German Nationalism and Patriotism is in most of its forms highly problematic),...
In opposition to the "problematic" German Nationalism and its concepts ...

Do you have some examples (or one) of unproblematic concepts of nationalism or unproblamatic Nationalism as such ?
 
In opposition to the "problematic" German Nationalism and its concepts ...

Do you have some examples (or one) of unproblematic concepts of nationalism or unproblamatic Nationalism as such ?

I'm personally opposed to nationalism (and patriotism which I see as a part of nationalism), and think that we should abandon thinking in national states.
While I haven't examined nationalism closely enough to find a good unproblematic example, it seems possible that there is the possibility of a hypothetical scenario, in which nationalism is helpful.
( I often avoid making absolute statements, since those hypothetical scenarios in which things I oppose could be in some case good are always possible ).
(It is possible to think about a weird concept of nationalism like: "We are better than all the other nations, because we reject any violence and help everyone")

German nationalism often strongly emphasize ancestry and biological roots, and is therefore more problematic than some other nationalisms which only demand loyalty to a nation (which is in itself problematic) and deemphasize biological ancestry.

But a more detailed discussion about nationalism needs a special thread in the Chat, since it is clearly political and ideological.
 
They'd soon close ranks if some stinking foreigner tried to compel the states to dissolve the Union and be separate countries.
Yep just like they did in the Thirty years war, the Waro of the Austrian succession, the Seven Years War an, the Napoleonic Wars and every war in betwen. It was s oclever of the Germans to stay united while they pretneded to salughter each other on the battlefield

The Germans are done and over with in such a scenario. They arre just pawns to be used by the great powers who will never allow the Germans to reunite
 

longsword14

Banned
Yep just like they did in the Thirty years war, the Waro of the Austrian succession, the Seven Years War an, the Napoleonic Wars and every war in betwen
:rolleyes:
If it were so easy to turn the German principalities upon one another, then why did nobody in the Entente think of it? Clearly they were missing your stellar insight.
If the Germans were so prone to fracturing, and were considered as a convenient bundle but nothing more, then why did Bavaria and Saxony not try to overthrow those dastardly Prussians as soon as tbe lines settled in the West and the bodies started piling?
 
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NoMommsen

Donor
Yep just like they did in the Thirty years war, the Waro of the Austrian succession, the Seven Years War an, the Napoleonic Wars and every war in betwen. It was s oclever of the Germans to stay united while they pretneded to salughter each other on the battlefield

The Germans are done and over with in such a scenario. They arre just pawns to be used by the great powers who will never allow the Germans to reunite
This to be considered after 1918 is just ignoring/denying the complete history and especually cultural history (ideas, music, poetry, science, technology, historical/scientific/social or "plain" philosophy) since the midht of 18th century of central europe (aka Germany) at least.

Given the interdependencies and mobility of cultural protagonists I would IMO even be claim to roots the ideas, which led to the ideas "nation" and "national unity" with its strong, "democratic" elements compared to the absolutistic stately "plethora" until the end of the 18th century, in the renaissance of all of europe.
 
Yep just like they did in the Thirty years war, the Waro of the Austrian succession, the Seven Years War an, the Napoleonic Wars and every war in betwen. It was s oclever of the Germans to stay united while they pretneded to salughter each other on the battlefield

The Germans are done and over with in such a scenario. They arre just pawns to be used by the great powers who will never allow the Germans to reunite


Nationalism as the late 19th and early 20C knew it was far less powerful in those earlier centuries.

A far more relevant parallel is the 1935 referendum in the Saar. It was a coal-mining region, where many would have been SDP or even KPD voters had they been part of the Weimar Republic. And they knew what awaited them in Nazi Germany - suppression of their political parties and trade unions. Yet the vote was still ten to one in favour of return to the Reich.

National feeling simply trumped all other considerations. As George Orwell noted "Christianity and international socialism [he might have added "democracy"] are as weak as straw in comparison with it."


Could the larger ones such as Bavaria have permanently remained independent, though?

It isn't that large in proportion to Germany as a whole. And Bavarians had been fighting side by side with other Germans right through the Great War - as had the grandsons of Yankees and Rebs in the AEF.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Could the larger ones such as Bavaria have permanently remained independent, though?
Would depend on what actally happens and how the "devision" is done :
- as the OP states with pre-1871 borders
or
- as more along lines I proposed in this post

In case one :
Only way I could see Bavaria NOT been drawn into a unified Germany is by - more or less - forced unification with Badenia and Württemberg into a France-dependend "southern confederation". But that way it would exchange prussian domination against french rule.

In case two :
Here the sizes and strengthes of the single "countries"/"regions" would be much more "spread", heavy industry in the Rheinland, lesser also Saxony, but not the agricultural "backing", what would be sited in Lower Saxony, Bavaria "rest"-Prussia"Brandenburgia, mixed blöessing of these i.e. in Württemberg, Badenia, Hesse, access to international trade aka the big ports : well distributed between Lower Saxony, Hammburg, Luebeck, maybe a still existent Oldenburg.
Therefore : even the still big Prussian/Brandenburg could not dominate whatever kind of now needed cooperation might emerge.
 

Deleted member 94680

Merge a separated Bavaria with post-Saint-Germain-en-Laye Austria? Set it up as a Catholic Southern counterpart to Prussia? Come down harsher on Prussia (for the "guilt") and be more benevolent to Austria-Bavaria to predispose them to the WAllies?

A long shot I know.
 
Poland was beaten up by Prussia and Austria and Russia. Prussia didn't accomplish that on her own let alone manage to defend herself against potential aggressions from Russia/USSR as well.
I think the Saxon King of Poland might have also helped. Though the Wettins didn't end up with a smaller, non-elective Kingdom like they wanted. Closest would by the Grand Duchy of Warsaw during the Napoleonic Wars. Speaking of Saxony, perhaps the Kingdom regains Prussian Saxony?
 
Ahh, and about regional identities and seperation. Instead of just the member states of the German Empire, seems likely that, in this admittedly tenuous scenario, that Prussia gets a bit more carved up, with Hanove, Silesia, and the Rhineland going free.
 
Ahh, and about regional identities and seperation. Instead of just the member states of the German Empire, seems likely that, in this admittedly tenuous scenario, that Prussia gets a bit more carved up, with Hanove, Silesia, and the Rhineland going free.

Free from Prussia maybe. They will of course have not the slightest interest in being separated from Germany, and will reunite with it at the first opportunity.
 
Everyone in the smaller states would go: Hmm, remember when we were united? It took three world powers to bring us down, lets unite again
 
Is this thread some kind of joke, I just don't get? Because I have a hard time seeing how people can look at Germsny in the interbellum and think "hey the Germans don't care about a united Germany, and there's a lot of regional separatists".
 
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