WI Germany not gone to war ?

[Kim78]

What do you guys think. How would it look like if Germany wouldnt have gone to war? But still possess all the regions/countries before 1 september 1939.

I think it would be a real superpower. German technology in the wehrmacht. Capitalistic system and a population of...hm....?
How many ppl would be under the third reich today? 150-200 million?

Anyway, sad to see the sorry ass state of Germany today. You think there are a possibility they build up the armed forces again? I know it is a very sensitive thing in Germany.
I think it is better they pay for the past with a strong military which help to secure world peace than to dismantling the armed forces totally.

Anyway, take care!

 

[carlton_bach]

That wouldn't work. The whole raison d'etre of Hitler's Germany was to go to war. If the giovernment had chosen not to go ahead in the 1938-42 time window, they'd have spent the rest of the century paying off the loans they had used to buy all that hardware.

Maybe a surviving Weimar Republic, or better yet, a Second Empire? That could be fun to play with. Of course, it's kinda been done...

 

[LordKalvan]

That wouldn't work. The whole raison d'etre of Hitler's Germany was to go to war. If the giovernment had chosen not to go ahead in the 1938-42 time window, they'd have spent the rest of the century paying off the loans they had used to buy all that hardware.

Maybe a surviving Weimar Republic, or better yet, a Second Empire? That could be fun to play with. Of course, it's kinda been done...

Yeah, a lot of scenarios played with the idea of no WW2. There could be two possible PODs (aside from the obvious one of a German victory in WW1):
a) Germany is really defeated on the field: WW1 lasts 12-18 months more, and the Entente succeeds in breaking the Western front. Then the peace treaty is not as punishing as Versailles was from the POV of punitive damages, but the German empire is dissolved into its constituent states (and Prussia looses the western lands, which become independent).
b) WW1 ends as it did, but the peace treaty is much milder toward Germany. This could succeed in giving the Weimar republic a chance to consolidate.

Once the POD is after the Nazi seizing power, I do not see a lot of possibilities. The only thing which could have ousted Hitler might have been an army coup, but (even admitting it could have been successful) I do not expect the army to demobilize. So, sooner or later they have to make use of the hardware. And, as Carlton said, there are the loans to be repaid

 

[aktarian]

WI Germany doesn't ocupy CS? This caused Brits to see what Hitler really was. Had he settled for Sudets only and make CS sattelite instead of protectorate would UK start to rearm and give guarantees to Poland?

 

[mishery]

Anyway, sad to see the sorry ass state of Germany today.

Er, what? Have you been there?

 

[zoomar]

Er, what? Have you been there?

Err, I think he means that modern Germany has been so thoroughly pacified by losing two world wars, aggressive ne-nazification, guilt, and self-recrimination that it never again wants to be perceived as a militaristic, or even vaguely nationalistic nation willing to act forcefully in it's own interests. It's almost like they're even afraid to fly their own flag over their own public buildings!

As someone who appreciates nations which are not afraid to agressively stand up for themselves and their interests (yes even the French), I find it kind of sad that the nation of Friedrich the Great and Bismarck has been reduced to this level. We in the US, UK, France, and Russia can celebrate our great wars and military victories to our hearts content, but modern Germans are denied this - or maybe have also chosen to deny themselves this. On the other hand, remembering full well what 80 million Germans can do if they really get mad about something, this is probably a good thing.

 

[sikitu]

Err, I think he means that modern Germany has been so thoroughly pacified by losing two world wars, aggressive ne-nazification, guilt, and self-recrimination that it never again wants to be perceived as a militaristic, or even vaguely nationalistic nation willing to act forcefully in it's own interests. It's almost like they're even afraid to fly their own flag over their own public buildings!

(...)I find it kind of sad that the nation of Friedrich the Great and Bismarck has been reduced to this level. We in the US, UK, France, and Russia can celebrate our great wars and military victories to our hearts content, but modern Germans are denied this - or maybe have also chosen to deny themselves this.

Time that someone from Germany posts in this thread, isn't it? Actually, we are in a peculiar situation. Due to the fact that the Nazis committed atrocities of a scale that has never been done before and after that, Germany appears to be stuck in some kind of public shame since WW2.

This is not all bad, because things like the Nazi state may never ever happen again. However, the problem is that public opinion in Germany usually associates anyone speaking of national symbols, Prussian heritage etc. with the Nazis. It is more accepted to express communist thoughts then to criticise Israel.

For example, we had a case last year in which a Member of the Bundestag (CDU) made a speech in which he said that during the Russian revolution, a large part of the Tscheka consisted of Jews, and that one could (he said could, not must) thus say that not only Germans committed evil deeds, but also jews did. That man was thrown out of his party (he still is in the Bundestag, but his career is ruined) and there was a huge public outcry. Furthermore, a high ranking officer in the Bundeswehr sent him a letter saying that he supported what had been said. This caused him to be retired immediately.

Yes, Germany is in a sorry state. But on the other hand, the US are as well. I personally think the inscription at the Statue of Liberty (give me your poor, homeless, etc., you know) should be removed immediately in view of the new "fortress America" that takes fingerprints of all travellers and that has already imprisoned innocents and violated human rights all over the world. Ah, one more word, I do understand the need to defend against terrorism. It is just the means that are questionable.

So the better statement is that the world is in a sorry state. But we live in it, and must make the best of it.

 

[zoomar]

For example, we had a case last year in which a Member of the Bundestag (CDU) made a speech in which he said that during the Russian revolution, a large part of the Tscheka consisted of Jews, and that one could (he said could, not must) thus say that not only Germans committed evil deeds, but also jews did. That man was thrown out of his party (he still is in the Bundestag, but his career is ruined) and there was a huge public outcry. Furthermore, a high ranking officer in the Bundeswehr sent him a letter saying that he supported what had been said. This caused him to be retired imediately.

Well, there is a little thing called common sense. I'm sorry, but ANY Germans foolish enough to make such claims deserved everything which happened to them - as I find it hard to believe they did not come from darker ideals or motives. This should not be confused with taking legitimate national pride in the warmaking skills of WW1 AND WW2 German soldiers, seamen, and airmen, nor even in nationalistic displays of German national symbols (not of course the swastika). Militarism was not evil, Nationalsim was not evli. Naziism was evil.

 

[Alayta]

b) WW1 ends as it did, but the peace treaty is much milder toward Germany. This could succeed in giving the Weimar republic a chance to consolidate.

I am sorry(not for you, for the europeans), but the german nation at that time was so backward and militaristic, hirarchcic and looking for someone to tell what to do, that this alone is not enough.

By the way, its getting political isnt it?

 

[Alayta]

Militarism was not evil, Nationalsim was not evli. Naziism was evil.

Nazism consisted out of natinalism and militrism. nothing else. If those both meet, madness is the only possble outcame-beware!!!!!

 

[Kim78]

Er, what? Have you been there?

I live there. But I am not German.

Err, I think he means that modern Germany has been so thoroughly pacified by losing two world wars, aggressive ne-nazification, guilt, and self-recrimination that it never again wants to be perceived as a militaristic, or even vaguely nationalistic nation willing to act forcefully in it's own interests. It's almost like they're even afraid to fly their own flag over their own public buildings!

As someone who appreciates nations which are not afraid to agressively stand up for themselves and their interests (yes even the French), I find it kind of sad that the nation of Friedrich the Great and Bismarck has been reduced to this level. We in the US, UK, France, and Russia can celebrate our great wars and military victories to our hearts content, but modern Germans are denied this - or maybe have also chosen to deny themselves this. On the other hand, remembering full well what 80 million Germans can do if they really get mad about something, this is probably a good thing.

That is pretty exact my thoughts. Plus the high unemployment, declining population, social welfare, and lousy economy. I think that will be Germany's downfall. And Europes too for that matter.

 

[aktarian]

Nazism consisted out of natinalism and militrism. nothing else. If those both meet, madness is the only possble outcame-beware!!!!!

Throw in a good dose of antisemitism, anti-communism, conservativism, revanchism and you got yourself one nazi party.

 

[zoomar]

Nazism consisted out of natinalism and militrism. nothing else. If those both meet, madness is the only possble outcame-beware!!!!!

Imperial Japan was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. Wilhelmine Germany was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. Mussolini's Italy was nationalistic and militaristic - but not Nazi. France under Napoleon and DeGaulle was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. The British Empire at various times in its history has been both - and is not Nazi. Russia and the Soviet Union have been. The US is today. Naziism was characterized by an especially virulent and dehumanizing racism and totalitarian mindset which far outdistances those other examples, even the USSR.

True, nationalism and militarism are components of Naziism, they do not require it.

 

[mishery]

high unemployment, declining population, social welfare, and lousy economy. .

The first two are definitely bad, but if you look at the unemployment in the states of the former W. Germany, it isn't that bad.

Social Welfare - you would prefer abject poverty and ghettos?

Lousy economy? Sluggish and in need of some deregulation, but contrary to the impression put around by the right wing press it is still a rich country. I live in the UK, which is supposed to be doing better than Germany, but when I go to Germany (fairly regularly) I am struck by much richer it feels.

 

[Kim78]

The first two are definitely bad, but if you look at the unemployment in the states of the former W. Germany, it isn't that bad.

Social Welfare - you would prefer abject poverty and ghettos?

Lousy economy? Sluggish and in need of some deregulation, but contrary to the impression put around by the right wing press it is still a rich country. I live in the UK, which is supposed to be doing better than Germany, but when I go to Germany (fairly regularly) I am struck by much richer it feels.

No, its not. Around 8% if I´m not misstaken. But Germany transfers enormous amounts of money to East Germany...where around 18-20% are unemployed. And has it helped them?

Sure, it might have helped them get more money in the pocket. But it hasnt helped them to get a job.

About social welfare. Sweden (where I am from) reports that the german welfare system is VERY generous. A lot more than sweden. And we have a really generous welfare system.
I think the difference should be bigger between those who work and those who dont. I alos think the amount of money you get in welfare are ridiculous high. I mean, who the hell wanna got to work when you receive 80-90% of your salary when you can be unemployed.

The whole thing with social welfare is the help people who are in a jam for a period. But still there are people who are on the welfare for 10+ years.

And it is not in need of "some" regulation. It is in need of a lot of degegulation. I am no socialdemocrat but the Schroeder-reforms are necessary and he knows it. Everyone knows it. It is foolish to think otherwise.

So, to summarize. If some poverty and ghetto is the price we have to pay to get the high unemployment rate down it is worth the price. I dont see it as poverty and ghetto. I just see it as a fair difference between the working population and the non-working population.

hmm....this was off-topic

 

[fhaessig]

I think the difference should be bigger between those who work and those who dont. I alos think the amount of money you get in welfare are ridiculous high. I mean, who the hell wanna got to work when you receive 80-90% of your salary when you can be unemployed.

The whole thing with social welfare is the help people who are in a jam for a period. But still there are people who are on the welfare for 10+ years.

hmm....this was off-topic

True. ALso false for germany, AFAIK. Definitely for France, Belgium or the Netherland ( where I actually worked ). No country I know gives you 80-90% of your salary in unemployment. Also there is a timelimiot on how long you get unemployment benefit. Welfare is another story but is rather low ( about 440 USD/month in France, IIRC )

 

[zoomar]

True. ALso false for germany, AFAIK. Definitely for France, Belgium or the Netherland ( where I actually worked ). No country I know gives you 80-90% of your salary in unemployment. Also there is a timelimiot on how long you get unemployment benefit. Welfare is another story but is rather low ( about 440 USD/month in France, IIRC )

My son lives and works in Sweden. He tells me the unemployment rate for the first year is 80%. Is he misinformed?

 

[Kim78]

My son lives and works in Sweden. He tells me the unemployment rate for the first year is 80%. Is he misinformed?

A little bit.
First six months you receive 85%.....then it decrease to 80%. My sister is on the unemployment benefit since 2 years now. It so sad. She dont understand why she should work when she receive 80% of her salary. She think it is better to hang out with her friends and go to coffee shops.

A friend of my father is one lazy SOB. He has been unemployed since -91 and still receives money.

Up until recently it was possible to receive welfare and unemployment benefit for an unlimited time in Germany. But the Agenda 2010 is putting end to that. I think maximum is 5 years. And that goes into effect 2005.

 

[LordKalvan]

Imperial Japan was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. Wilhelmine Germany was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. Mussolini's Italy was nationalistic and militaristic - but not Nazi. France under Napoleon and DeGaulle was both militaristic and nationalistic - but not Nazi. The British Empire at various times in its history has been both - and is not Nazi. Russia and the Soviet Union have been. The US is today. Naziism was characterized by an especially virulent and dehumanizing racism and totalitarian mindset which far outdistances those other examples, even the USSR.

True, nationalism and militarism are components of Naziism, they do not require it.

I would say that the examples you are making are not very attractive ones.
Nationalism (and militarism, which is always present when a nationalist ideology prevails) have been the biggest problem of the XX century.
Maybe it's time to understand that sabre-rattling (or missile-rattling, nowadays ) is not the solution to all the problems.
USA has started to go on a bad path: the idea that if a hammer does not work you go and pick up a bigger hammer, and so on and so forth is a bit naive, to say the least. I've always been convinced that deals (be them between individuals or states) work only when both parties gain something.

Anyway, it looks like this thread has been derailed toward politics (and nasty politics at that). So long, guys. I'm pulling out

 

[fhaessig]

My son lives and works in Sweden. He tells me the unemployment rate for the first year is 80%. Is he misinformed?

I may have been. I didn't know about Swedish rate.