WI: Germany manages to keep the French fleet in 1940?

The Germans probably don't need to try and take the ships in North Africa, the French ships were supposed to be returning to France. The relevant Article:

ARTICLE VIII.
The French war fleet is to collect in ports to be designated more particularly, and under German and/or Italian control to demobilize and lay up—with the exception of those units released to the French Government for protection of French interests in its colonial empire.

The peacetime stations of ships should control the designation of ports.

The German Government solemnly declares to the French Government that it does not intend to use the French War Fleet which is in harbors under German control for its purposes in war, with the exception of units necessary for the purposes of guarding the coast and sweeping mines.

It further solemnly and expressly declares that it does not intend to bring up any demands respecting the French War Fleet at the conclusion of a peace.

All warships outside France are to be recalled to France with the exception of that portion of the French War Fleet which shall be designated to represent French interests in the colonial empire
'purposes of guarding the coast' could be a little too vague if the ships are in German/Italian controlled ports.

The war was not expected to go on. Germany holds about 1.8m French soldiers who won't be returned till a peace is signed. Once the war looks like it will go on, then perhaps the French could be persuaded to exchange men for ships. There is the Destroyers for Bases precedent as well.
 
There’s a difference between crewing a single ship and the entire MN (200+ vessels).
I agree. In 1939, the French navy was 160,000 personnel all ranks. The RN was 120,000 + 70,000 reserves. KM was only 78,000 in 1939 with plans to expand to 200,000. By 1943 it was 22,000 officers and 613,000 Petty officers and seamen. I don't think the KM could man all the ships in a worthwhile time frame. The pick would be 2 Dunkerque, Algerie, 6 La Galissoniere, and then the large DD (2400 ton type) to replace losses.
 
The Germans probably don't need to try and take the ships in North Africa, the French ships were supposed to be returning to France. The relevant Article:

ARTICLE VIII.
The French war fleet is to collect in ports to be designated more particularly, and under German and/or Italian control to demobilize and lay up—with the exception of those units released to the French Government for protection of French interests in its colonial empire.

The peacetime stations of ships should control the designation of ports.

The German Government solemnly declares to the French Government that it does not intend to use the French War Fleet which is in harbors under German control for its purposes in war, with the exception of units necessary for the purposes of guarding the coast and sweeping mines.

It further solemnly and expressly declares that it does not intend to bring up any demands respecting the French War Fleet at the conclusion of a peace.

All warships outside France are to be recalled to France with the exception of that portion of the French War Fleet which shall be designated to represent French interests in the colonial empire
'purposes of guarding the coast' could be a little too vague if the ships are in German/Italian controlled ports.

The war was not expected to go on. Germany holds about 1.8m French soldiers who won't be returned till a peace is signed. Once the war looks like it will go on, then perhaps the French could be persuaded to exchange men for ships. There is the Destroyers for Bases precedent as well.

How many of those French POW's were used as a labor force? Working in factories or on farms? I have reservations that the Germans would be willing to loose all that free labor. I'll add that this phrase "
The German Government solemnly declares to the French Government that it does not intend to use the French War Fleet which is in harbors under German control for its purposes in war, with the exception of units necessary for the purposes of guarding the coast and sweeping mines." says the Germans don't want any of the fleet at all except for MS and small vessels, which sort of precludes the use of larger vessels. The French were very concerned over their fleet and their colonies, taking the best of it would be seen as a violation of the treaty by the French. IOTL the French kept ships in Dakar and N. Africa and Martinique and the German raised on objections.
 
Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1922-46 and Whitley's Destroyers of World War II give the MN 70 destroyers of all types at the outbreak of World War II as follows:
32 large destroyers of the contre-torpilleur type
26 medium size destroyers of the 1500 tonne type
12 small destroyers of the 600 tonne type which are the 12 "Light Destroyers" (TB) referred to in the quote above.
According to both sources 30 destroyers were building or on order
4 large destroyers of the 2930 tonne type - ordered in 1938 but not yet laid down
12 medium size destroyers of the Le Hardi class - ordered 1932-39 and laid down 1936-39
14 small destroyers of the 1010 tonne type - ordered 1937-38 - only 6 of the 14 had been laid down by September 1939
Anthony Preston's An Illustrated History of the Navies of World War II says the MN had 78 destroyers in September 1939 as follows:
32 large destroyers of the contre-torpilleur type
26 medium size destroyers of the 1500 tonne type
8 medium size destroyers of the Le Hardi class
12 small destroyers of the 600 tonne type​

He also said that 27 destroyers were under construction or on order, but did not give a breakdown of the classes. That gave the MN according to Preston a total of 105 destroyers of all types completed, building or on order, compared to the 100 according to Conway's and Whitley.


Ah, I see one error I made. The "4 large destroyers of the 2930 tonne type" are Mogadors, the four ships (not laid down) were to be the Kleber, Desaix, Hoche and Marceau. This brings the total of large DD (Contre Torpilleurs) to 32 vice 36.
The Le Hardi class are problematic. Navypedia (a very decent source) gives 8 as completed in June of 1940, this is in error. Completed and commissioned and in service are different. From what I can tell from Couhat, Le Hardi saw action prior to the French surrender, fighting at Dakar, so she was in service. The others are listed as being completed (Foudroyant, Mameluck, Casque, Le Cyclone, Sirocco, and Bison) but Bison is also listed as incomplete.
The TB/small DD of the 1010 tonne type are the La Fier's. Three were launched (the MN attempted to tow them to free ports to complete them, they were launched near Bordeaux) but didn't escape the fall of France. Four others were laid down, but the remaining seven were not laid down. Information from Couhat.
 
KM crew at the end of 1940 was an estimated 60,000 sailors in a 150,000 man navy. They had the crews , they just needed the ships.

For fleet numbers consult the following link which shows numbers per year and crew per boat can be examined per ship.

http://navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_list.htm

These lists do not include the hundreds and hundreds of merchant/fishing vessels commandeered and converted into Vorpstenboot.

http://navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_converted.htm


The other site locates major warships captured and converted through the war.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/shipindex.html

There were dozens and dozens of minesweepers & motor minesweeper of various sizes- not included.
 
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In terms of repurposing captured enemy vessels, smaller vessels are easier to absorb into the fleet, negating the need to waste precious surface construction tonnage on home made versions. Historically 'home brew' small vessels consumed 2/3 of the naval construction tonnage throughout the war. In addition ~ 100,000 of tons of KM construction was expended through the war- to complete unfinished warships and unfinished vessels in foreign yards . The bulk of these were not completed and scraped later. That's 100,000 tons construction & 92,000 tons of removal work was wasted on existing warships [37,000 tons of that in foreign yards].

If there was a French Fleet to cannibalize on that's a different matter. Mastering French Armament & FCS plus boilers/turbine would take years to learn , but only one of the three -might just be doable. Without a supply of spare of ammo naval guns have limited value - but the turrets could be removed & mounted on cement bunkers along the Atlantic wall, plus there limited supply of ammo. Likewise the FCS could be similar mounted , leaving the hull and propulsion to work with. Removing superstructure down to the hull is about 10-15% of the ships max displacement- so the total removal work [92k] could allow rebuilding of 732k tons warship [max displacement] from the deck up.

Historically the KM purpose build hundreds of 4"-5" & 6" guns during the war to mount along the Atlantic Wall. This effort could instead be utilise to rearm the bulk of these captured warships with KM guns and ammo.... The bigger hulls [cruisers or larger] could be converted into Carriers like fast 14 CVL & 4 CVA + 70 DD escorts..
 
How many of those French POW's were used as a labor force? Working in factories or on farms? I have reservations that the Germans would be willing to loose all that free labor. I'll add that this phrase "
The German Government solemnly declares to the French Government that it does not intend to use the French War Fleet which is in harbors under German control for its purposes in war, with the exception of units necessary for the purposes of guarding the coast and sweeping mines." says the Germans don't want any of the fleet at all except for MS and small vessels, which sort of precludes the use of larger vessels. The French were very concerned over their fleet and their colonies, taking the best of it would be seen as a violation of the treaty by the French. IOTL the French kept ships in Dakar and N. Africa and Martinique and the German raised on objections.

I think the Germans held all of them in camps although many worked on farms. It had an impact on French farming (10% of French males) and Vichy had a relief system to try and get some soldiers back. When the Germans first used forced labour from France and for each forced laborer a prisoner could volunteer to be a factory worker. The Germans gained 221,000 ex-prisoner workers and 30,000 German guards were released for the front.

I don't thing the British (nor the French) really believed anything Hitler put to paper by 1940 hence the action by the RN against French fleet units.
 
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You're gonna have to find a LOT of French speaking Germans. Like 100% literate in it, because all the valves, all the instructions, they are all gonna be in French.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Worst scenary. The armistice is followed by a peace treaty. Petain (or more probable Laval using his name) signs a mutual defense treaty with the nazis. After Mers el Kebir France declare war on GB...
 
After Mers el Kebir France declare war on GB...

. . . you know frankly, going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. You just leave a lot of useless noisy baggage behind. - Jeb Babbin, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense 2003​
 
I know its not what the OP asked, but what if the POD is a security leak tipping of the French. They are ready, mines are laid, they can draw in aircraft and fight ferouciously. The British Lise ships, more of the French survive.
Might Vichy not join the axis then and we got the French fleet not in german hands, but on the same side.
 
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