WI: Germany manages to keep the French fleet in 1940?

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Not much changes.
For starters - the Kriegsmarine does not have the people to man those ships ...
Of course, the excitable British PM bounces of the walls and ceiling ... then the RN sinks the ex-French fleet and British propaganda has a field day ...
 
I suppose you could have the organization of the Vichy regeime (Or at least the shifting of the alignment/readiness of the French Navy) go somewhat more smoothly/quickly and thus have the fleet be combat-read to defend itself when the British attack. If we consider Petain's government a puppet of Germany, one could say that if they managed to save the fleet and declared war on GB as a result it would be "Germany" getting those ships. Would that qualify?
 
Not much changes.
For starters - the Kriegsmarine does not have the people to man those ships ...
Of course, the excitable British PM bounces of the walls and ceiling ... then the RN sinks the ex-French fleet and British propaganda has a field day ...

Under perfect conditions it would take over a year to bring a experienced German crew to combat readiness on a very unfamiliar ship. But then who would crew the German ship? If you take a portion of senior crew from all German ships it can take 2+ years to train German farm boys to combat readiness.

The other problem is fuel. These warships are hogs. OTL the Axis could not keep the Italian fleet operational.
 

hipper

Banned
What if in 1940 Germany somehow managed to capture the French fleet off the coast of Algeria rather than the UK destroying it?

How would this affect the rest of the war in Europe (particularly the Battle of the Atlantic)?

Realistically you would have to have the French Navy sail their fleet to Italian ports as part of the peace deal. (Perhaps Paris is not occupied in return)

There is the. A long period when the German Italian sailors get used to their new ships while keeping the, out of harms way (exercises in the Adriatic) so sometime In late 1941 the ships are in shape with the new crews to take part in the mediteranian conflict. I don’t see any changes to the battle of the Atlantic. B
 
Surely the RAF would bomb them over and over and over and over and over again until they were all sunk. There is no way those ships would be allowed to be of use to the Nazi. That is before you work out how the ships would be crewed, fueled and somehow sailed through the channel to Germany.
 
As @TruthfulPanda says, where do you get the crews from cooks to captains to man these vessels. I'll give you that the Kriegsmarine could use some vessels, mostly smaller ones or auxiliaries. For the battleships, as an example, even if you had the crew magically arrive at the pier, you now need to re-label everything in German. Everyone on the ship has to learn their way around so they can get from point A to point B in the dark. Everyone has to learn to use the gear, which while similar to that on German ships (form follows function) means even the cooks have to deal with an entirely new kitchen. Once you do this basic stuff you now have to go to sea and practice driving the ship, firing the guns, and so forth. To do all of this takes a minimum of six months, and that is just to be able to get in a combat situation without a guarantee of visiting Davy Jones.

Of course, you have the issue of things like spare parts and ammunition. Almost nothing except paint (and even that is a different color) that the Kriegsmarine uses is going to be suitable for a French warship. This means you hopefully find lots of warehoused parts and ammunition, but you'll need to ensure the factories that made this stuff keep cranking it out - which means you can't use those factories to produce goods that the German forces can use. It would not be surprising if the French radios use tubes (valves for our British cousins) that are different from those used in German sets, you need plenty of spares as these things tend to burn out or get broken.

Longer term, the MN vessels can be useful to the Kriegsmarine. Actually manning them, getting them battle ready and sustainable would take, IMHO, at least 12-18 months of dedicated effort for major vessels. A WWII battleship has >3,500 men in the crew, so for the entire French fleet you are talking lots of warm bodies. At some point somebody like Rommel might point out that all those guns on those ships might make dandy additions to the beach defenses along exposed coastlines.

My bottom line is the only way the major elements of the MN become Axis assets is if the Vichy regime takes an active role in fighting - they well lose some personnel who won't want to fight for the Germans, but they would be able to man a significant proportion of the fleet.
 
Using officers and petty officers who had been assigned to the ship from laying the keel, and adding others as the ship was built it still took near a year to train a new crew from 'completed' to combat readiness. When the USN Two Ocean Navy construction program started launching ships the reservists had been mobilized and run through a training program. So there was a cadre of officers/petty officers ready for the new fleet. In the case of the Germans the few naval reservists were already assigned and in use, the Italians had not time to prepare theirs. Abruptly doubling the size of the Axus fleet with these French vessels requires more than doubling the number of engineering officers and petty officers or technicians the two Axis nations possessed. Getting many to combat readiness in 18 months will be a serious challenge. If I were running this project I'd focus on activating some destroyers and torpedo boats for Mediterranian ops. Then maybe one from each size class, light cruiser, medium cruiser, capitol ship, as a training ship. the rest would get a few caretaker crew who could be expanded as circumstances allowed. Trying to develop 200,000 men as ships crew and support ashore would suck away so many men and other resources from the Axis navies, cargo fleets, Army, Air Forces, and industry. Maybe a few thousand for a destroyer flotilla, and a light cruiser or two?

I'd not touch a submarine. Even with their own subs, the Germans, Italians, Brits, USN, and Japanese were subject to training accidents that killed entire crews. Trying to get unfamiliar foreign subs operational, with the possibility of sabotage, looks like a unproductive task. Maybe one experimental crew to study the technology, but thats it for me.

Maybe like the Charlemagne Division the Germans could recruit a 'Charlemagne' crew to get a few ships operational?
 

Driftless

Donor
Considering the submarines.... To crew the French surface ships, wouldn't the Germans need to steal some current crew, or at least potential future crew from the U-boat rosters?
 
If they are going to attempt large scale use of French ships, then yes they'd be stealing future submarine crews. And future air force ground & aircrew, and future soldiers from the ground forces.
 
The RN had problems with the weapons and rearmed ex-French destroyers with 4.7" guns. In 1940 The Bourrasque class destroyer Ouragan was towed to Devonport for engine repairs and then manned by the Polish crew of Grom that had been sunk off Norway.

I think if the need was there, the Germans could find and train crews. They manned an ex Greek destroyer (built in the UK) that had guns of German origin.
 

nbcman

Donor
The RN had problems with the weapons and rearmed ex-French destroyers with 4.7" guns. In 1940 The Bourrasque class destroyer Ouragan was towed to Devonport for engine repairs and then manned by the Polish crew of Grom that had been sunk off Norway.

I think if the need was there, the Germans could find and train crews. They manned an ex Greek destroyer (built in the UK) that had guns of German origin.
There’s a difference between crewing a single ship and the entire MN (200+ vessels).
 
I think Germany would keep a couple high profile battleships or maybe a couple cruisers as commerce raiders.
The rest get "gifted" to the Italians, where they sit in port for lack of fuel like much of the Italian navy.
 
What if in 1940 Germany somehow managed to capture the French fleet off the coast of Algeria rather than the UK destroying it?

How would this affect the rest of the war in Europe (particularly the Battle of the Atlantic)?

Once they invaded Russia they didn't have enough oil to operate the Italian fleet, let alone the French fleet as well. So, the French fleet would mainly sit in port.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
At some point somebody like Rommel might point out that all those guns on those ships might make dandy additions to the beach defenses along exposed coastlines.
Or a hack like Porsche will sell the idea of using them as tracked SPGs to Hitler ...

The RN had problems with the weapons and rearmed ex-French destroyers with 4.7" guns. In 1940 The Bourrasque class destroyer Ouragan was towed to Devonport for engine repairs and then manned by the Polish crew of Grom that had been sunk off Norway.
Most of that crew would had been trained on a destroyer of that class - Poland owned two such vessels.
I read memoires of a Polish WWII seaman who flatly said that the French vessel had been sabotaged by its French crew before handover - nails driven into electric cables etc. He was very, very relieved when the hole Polish crew was transfered to one of the Hunt class vessels of the Free Polish Fleet ...
 
had thought for a long time they might be able to convert submarines to their own use (since they were already in the Med as against the journey of their own u-boats there past Gibraltar?) but @Carl Schwamberger convinced me otherwise for practical reasons he has reiterated in this thread.

the most plausible ships were merchant ships, easy (easier) to arm with standard German guns and operate. would not discount the value of KM having some of the faster transports prior to Nov. '42

if the Germans had pursued collaboration they might have allowed French to use their super destroyers around Syria
 
What if in 1940 Germany somehow managed to capture the French fleet off the coast of Algeria rather than the UK destroying it?

How would this affect the rest of the war in Europe (particularly the Battle of the Atlantic)?
Do you mean the whole French Navy or just the French ships that were attacked at Mers-el-Kebir?

The French Fleet at the start of World War II had about 80 submarines, an aircraft carrier, 2 incomplete new battleships, 5 old battleships, 2 new battlecruisers, 19 cruisers (7 heavy and 12 light) and 70 destroyers (including 32 contre-torpilleurs and 12 small destroyers of the torpedo boat type) plus minor war vessels.

The French fleet in the link was only 2 battlecruisers, 2 old battleships, 6 destroyers and a seaplane carrier.

As pointed out earlier in the thread the Germans captured a British built destroyer from the Greeks in 1941 and put her into service. What hasn't been pointed out so far is that they captured several Italian destroyers in September 1943 and put some of them into service. They also tried to finish some incomplete French and Dutch cruisers and destroyers, but IIRC the only one they succeeded in commissioning was the destroyer ZH1 (ex-Gerard Callenburgh).

If you only mean the ships that were at Mers-el-Kebir then part of the Armistice agreement with Vichy France could had been that those ships be handed over to the Germans and that Vichy had to maintain them and provide the ammunition. The Kriegsmarine could have provided some of the crews from the surviving members of the 3 cruisers and 10 Z-type destroyers recently lost in Norway and part of the Armistice agreement would have to be that Vichy would provide the necessary training.

However, as already pointed out it would be many months before the ships were operational, with the battleships and battlecruisers taking longer to bring into service than the destroyers.

Furthermore, it has already been pointed out the Italians didn't have enough fuel to keep all of their battleships operational so the 4 surrendered French battleships will spend most of their time as a fleet in being.

On the other hand the 6 destroyers would have been a useful addition to the Axis naval strength in the Mediterranean. Firstly because the Italian destroyer building didn't keep up with losses and second because they were the fast and heavily armed large destroyers of the contre-torpilleur type.

They aren't going to have any influence on the Battle of the Atlantic because they won't get past Gibraltar unless Spain comes into the war and on this board suggesting Spain joins the Axis is nearly as big a sin as mentioning Operation Sealion.

However, if you mean incorporating the whole French Navy into the Kriegsmarine (that is less the ships in British ports, Alexandria and the West Indies) it's already been pointed out that they didn't have the men or the fuel.

I suppose you could have the organization of the Vichy regeime (Or at least the shifting of the alignment/readiness of the French Navy) go somewhat more smoothly/quickly and thus have the fleet be combat-read to defend itself when the British attack. If we consider Petain's government a puppet of Germany, one could say that if they managed to save the fleet and declared war on GB as a result it would be "Germany" getting those ships. Would that qualify?
This is the most feasible way for it to happen. IIRC from the British official history of the war in the Mediterranean and Middle East it was touch and go whether Vichy France would declare war on Great Britain.
 
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A lot of the French ships that saw significant service with the Allies later in the war only did so after significant refits in American shipyards.

Another thing - if the French ships in Algeria get handed over to the Axis in some capacity or worse Vichy France joins the Axis, I would expect the US to move on French colonies in the western hemisphere very quickly.
 
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