WI: Germany license produces Japanese aircraft carriers

[Capt Thunderbolt]

a. In order to have the pilot alive, you need his RTB in a shot up plane. That kind of makes the plane an important part of the teaching syllabus.
b. Proves a.

Not quite sure what the point is here?
A null argument?

Btw was the USN learning ?

USS Yorktown (CV-5) Action Report

CV5/A16-3 (CCR-10-oah)
U.S.S. YORKTOWN
PACIFIC FLEET
18 JUN 1942

F4F-4 Airplanes

The fighter pilots are very disappointed with the performance and length of sustained fire power of the F4F-4 airplanes. The Zero fighters could easily outmaneuver and out-climb the F4F-3, and the consensus of fighter pilot opinion is that the F4F-4 is even more sluggish and slow than the F4F-3. It is also felt that it was a mistake to put 6 guns on the F4F-4 and thus to reduce the rounds per gun. For the opposition now being encountered the combination of 4 guns and 450 rounds per gun is much superior to the 6 guns with 240 rounds per gun. Many of our fighters ran out of ammunition even before the Jap dive bombers arrived over our forces; these were experienced pilots, not novices. It is strongly urged that the Navy be supplied with a fighter that is at least equal of the Zero fighter. It is believed that 4-50 caliber fixed machine guns give sufficient fire power for carrier based fighters, especially in view of the loss of performance involved in adding two additional guns.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

You brought up Kamikaze hits as somehow showing US carriers were superior to British ones. US fleet carriers hit by Kamikazes needed complete rebuilds above the level of the Hanger deck floor. Kamikazes bounced off British Fleet carriers that were back in action within a couple of hours at most. US carriers were easier to repair true, but British carriers were more likely to survive to reach the repair yard, and even though they took longer to repair that's still less time than it would have taken to build a new ship. In the end both US and British carriers had strengths and weaknesses and by the end of the war both countries had designed ships that were very similar, with armoured flight decks and open hangers.

 

[Sargon]

Even if Germany can somehow get Japan to agree to a licence for one of their carrier designs, there's still the problem of Goering to get by, who historically wanted to be in charge of anything that flies and seems to have hindered Germany's own carrier project OTL if I recall correctly (might be fuzzy on the details though knowing my memory).


Sargon

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Even if Germany can somehow get Japan to agree to a licence for one of their carrier designs, there's still the problem of Goering to get by, who historically wanted to be in charge of anything that flies and seems to have hindered Germany's own carrier project OTL if I recall correctly (might be fuzzy on the details though knowing my memory).

Sargon

I think that's exaggerated.

The Luftwaffe did form two aircraft carrier squadrons the month before Graff Zeppelin was launched. A third squadron was formed in the summer of 1939 and the force was doubled to 6 squadrons in the autumn of 1939. The Luftwaffe converted them into normal fighter and dive-bomber squadrons in July 1940. That is the month after the Kriegsmarine suspended construction of Graff Zeppelin.

 

[Sargon]

I think that's exaggerated.

The Luftwaffe did form two aircraft carrier squadrons the month before Graff Zeppelin was launched. A third squadron was formed in the summer of 1939 and the force was doubled to 6 squadrons in the autumn of 1939. The Luftwaffe converted them into normal fighter and dive-bomber squadrons in July 1940. That is the month after the Kriegsmarine suspended construction of Graff Zeppelin.

Well, I did say my memory was fuzzy.

Goering isn't a factor in my current naval fiction story. And Germany has carriers, but, er well, the situation is a bit strange.


Sargon

 

[McPherson]

You brought up Kamikaze hits as somehow showing US carriers were superior to British ones. US fleet carriers hit by Kamikazes needed complete rebuilds above the level of the Hanger deck floor. Kamikazes bounced off British Fleet carriers that were back in action within a couple of hours at most. US carriers were easier to repair true, but British carriers were more likely to survive to reach the repair yard, and even though they took longer to repair that's still less time than it would have taken to build a new ship. In the end both US and British carriers had strengths and weaknesses and by the end of the war both countries had designed ships that were very similar, with armoured flight decks and open hangers.

PLP:

As pointed out earlier, the American carriers were faster to restore after holes were blasted into them. That made them superior for the war that was fought.

Kamikazes did not "bounce off" British carriers. That is a myth. HMS Illustrious is the usual example. But HMS Victorious was mangled and took a month to repair.

Not quite sure what the point is here?
A null argument?

Btw was the USN learning ?

USS Yorktown (CV-5) Action Report

CV5/A16-3 (CCR-10-oah)
U.S.S. YORKTOWN
PACIFIC FLEET
18 JUN 1942

F4F-4 Airplanes

The fighter pilots are very disappointed with the performance and length of sustained fire power of the F4F-4 airplanes. The Zero fighters could easily outmaneuver and out-climb the F4F-3, and the consensus of fighter pilot opinion is that the F4F-4 is even more sluggish and slow than the F4F-3. It is also felt that it was a mistake to put 6 guns on the F4F-4 and thus to reduce the rounds per gun. For the opposition now being encountered the combination of 4 guns and 450 rounds per gun is much superior to the 6 guns with 240 rounds per gun. Many of our fighters ran out of ammunition even before the Jap dive bombers arrived over our forces; these were experienced pilots, not novices. It is strongly urged that the Navy be supplied with a fighter that is at least equal of the Zero fighter. It is believed that 4-50 caliber fixed machine guns give sufficient fire power for carrier based fighters, especially in view of the loss of performance involved in adding two additional guns.

a. Your argument may be somewhat lacking in the system of systems categorization analysis as we discuss it. You have to have a live pilot to learn lessons to pass on and since his plane had to bring him back, it is kind of important that the plane be good enough to bring him back.
b. So dismount 2 guns and save weight and adjust the belt trays accordingly. As was done until c. happened.
c. F4U and F6F out to the fleet by 1943.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

A He 111 "accidentally" bombs the carrier.
A destroyer "accidentally" shoots down a Bf 110.

The Luftwaffe did manage some anti-shipping strikes on the Kriegsmarine: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wikinger

 

[edgeworthy]

Are you confusing Eastern Solomons with Santa Cruz?

Not all the Kates carried torpedoes. The Commanding officer describing the Yorktown hit that shattered her uptakes compared it to a hit received by USS California. It is suspected that USS California took a converted artillery shell hit on her deck, so who knows about that one?

You are the one who seems to be confused, you claimed that Enterprise was hit by a Type 2 at Eastern Solomons, which an Aichi D3A cannot carry, and the source you used to back this up clearly stated that the post battle assessment said otherwise.

And you have provided no evidence that any of Hiryu's air group carried a No.80 during its second attack on Yorktown.
That the Nakajima B5N could carry a No.80 whilst level-bombing, does not mean it was. (Especially in a Torpedo attack!?)

In the first Japanese counter-strike the Dive-Bombers were all "Vals", which cannot carry a No.80, during which all of the bomb-hits occurred, the second wave was composed of "Kates" during which Yorktown was only struck by torpedoes, please read any account of the Battle of Midway.

Battle of Midway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Well, I did say my memory was fuzzy.

Goering isn't a factor in my current naval fiction story. And Germany has carriers, but, er well, the situation is a bit strange.

Sargon

It's unlikely that you would have known in the first place. That is, unless you knew about websites like this one.

The Luftwaffe, 1933-45

This is where I found a lot of the information about the Luftwaffe that I use.

 

[Sargon]

It's unlikely that you would have known in the first place. That is, unless you knew about websites like this one.

The Luftwaffe, 1933-45

This is where I found a lot of the information about the Luftwaffe that I use.

Actually I seem to vaguely remember that one for some reason. People used to post all sorts of useful links to various sites pertaining to land, sea and air over at the warships1 boards ages ago. I still hang out there as I'm a mod there. But my last visit to the Luftwaffe site is probably over 15 or 16 years ago, and I can't remember much so my mind is just as fuzzy anyway.

But bookmarked now. Could come in handy for my story.


Sargon

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

PLP:

As pointed out earlier, the American carriers were faster to restore after holes were blasted into them. That made them superior for the war that was fought.

Kamikazes did not "bounce off" British carriers. That is a myth. HMS Illustrious is the usual example. But HMS Victorious was mangled and took a month to repair.

The damage report doesn’t appear to agree with your statement on HMS Victorious

Report:

HMS Victorious, May 4, Damage Report (Bomb & Shell): Kamikaze damage report for the of HMS Victorious

www.armouredcarriers.com

Bomb detonated on Flight Deck
b. Aircraft bounced off deck and entered water clear of ship.

(v) Not applicable
(vi)
a. Major damage confined to area 12ft by 13ft on flight deck and frames and bulkheads immediately below on uppery gallery deck in B.2 turret working space.
b. Nil

(vii)
a. Minor damage extended over area about 500 sq.ft. on flight deck and in B.2 turret working space, port forward fore and aft passage and port lift motor room on upper gallery deck.
b. No structural damage
xi)
a. Bomb judged to have detonated completely. No fragments of bomb were identified.

(xii)
a. Ship fully operational as a Carrier with the accelerator out of action and one 4.5” gun out of action.
b. Fighting efficiency unimpaired


b) Second attack
This “Kamikaze” bounced in flames off the flight deck over the port 40mm twin mounting and its Mk.51 director and thence into the sea.


Accelerator. Type BHIII(3) accelerator rails were torn and distorted for a length of 50ft and both accelerating and retarding ropes were damaged.

Operation of aircraft. Ready to land on immediately. Ready to fly off Corsairs in about 1 hour. Ready for full operation (without accelerator) in 12 hours (i.e. at down 10th May).

 

[McPherson]

Check out her radar system room and flight control (What Americans call the CIC and Pryfly.). Mission kill until repaired.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Check out her radar system room and flight control (What Americans call the CIC and Pryfly.). Mission kill until repaired.

The radar, it’s not the only radar in a task force.
Pryfly, aircraft were flying, so it’s gone to alternate

Neither pryfly or radar damaged in Vic’
Not mission kill on HMS Victorious

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Check out her radar system room and flight control (What Americans call the CIC and Pryfly.). Mission kill until repaired.

The plane did not hit the deck

Damage was by NEAR MISSE

Any carrier or any ship would have suffered the done fate !

and the pryfly was not touched


“The bulk of the burning wreckage then plunged into the sea some 50ft from the carrier where its bomb load - estimated at being some 1700lbs - detonated on contact.”


DAMAGE ASSESSMENT
Initially, HMS Illustrious had not appeared to be at all affected by the attack. Her air operations were not disrupted and the ship remained under full control.

However, later, when the fleet worked up speed to take up a new position, Illustrious would report her vibrations had intensified to an almost unsustainable level.

It was suspected her already battered hull had been further compressed and distorted by the near-miss.


AFTERMATH
HMS Illustrious stopped at Leyte Gulf earlier to take on fuel for her trip back to Australia. Her kamikaze damage was assessed by divers from among the Fleet Train and found to be much worse than initially thought.

Almost the whole of her starboard side had been corrugated around the frames from a succession of near misses she had sustained in the Mediterranean. A fresh check of her hull below the waterline revealed some of these plates and frames had now cracked.

 

[McPherson]

History and Technology - Kamikaze Damage to US and British Carriers - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

HMS Victorious

A montage of the Kamikaze strikes on HMS Victorious.
Left: A Zeke 52 as taken from the bridge a second before it hit the carrier.
Right: Kamikaze going into the sea 80 feet from Victorious on 1 April 1945.
Bottom: Fire started by second Kamikaze hit on 9 May 1945.
1 April 1945
Attacked by a Mitsubishi A6M Zero "Zeke" which struck its starboard wing against the port side of the flight deck, causing the plane to cartwheel into the sea where its 250 kg bomb exploded underwater about 80 feet from the ship's side. Tons of water, fuel and fragments of both plane and pilot were thrown on the deck, but the ship escaped damage.
9 May 1945
Struck by two kamikazes. The first was a Mitsubishi A6M Zero "Zeke" making a shallow dive which hit the flight deck at Frame 30 near the forward lift (elevator), slid across the deck and into "B2" 4.5-in mount. This hit created a 25 sq. ft. hole and depressed the deck over an area of 144 sq. ft. In addition, bulkheads in the area were buckled, both "B" group 4.5" mountings were put out of action with one gun barrel destroyed, the ship's accelerator [a type of aircraft catapult] was broken and small fires were started.2 The second kamikaze hit a glancing blow against the port side aft, destroying four Corsairs and a 40 mm gun director. This hit also put an arrestor unit out of action. The two attacks killed four, seriously wounded four more and less-seriously wounded an additional twenty. Victorious was able to fly off planes one hour later and could land planes twelve hours later. Fully back in action after two days. Repairs took one month.

From NavWeaps.

Mission kill.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Permanent repairs, after the action was over took 1 month, the carrier was able to operate aircraft within 12 HOURS (presumably able to handle some local defence) and was FULLY BACK IN ACTION after 2 DAYS. That's a reduction in capability not a mission kill anymore than a BB with a turret temporarily knocked out is a mission kill.

 

[Cockroach]

Kamikazes did not "bounce off" British carriers. That is a myth. HMS Illustrious is the usual example. But HMS Victorious was mangled and took a month to repair.

Victorious remained on station with the rest of Taskforce 57 for about 21 days after the first kamikaze hit and 16 days after the second hit, albeit with one catapult and several crash barriers defunct. She withdrew in company with the rest of the British Taskforce when they came due for minor refits, repairs and giving the crews some R&R necessary to have them operational to support the expected invasion of Japan. In that light it's dubious if much of her time spent in dock can be attibuted to Kamikaze damage.

 

[McPherson]

PLP: if your arrestor gear is wrecked, for an aircraft carrier, that is a mission kill. And that is not an easy thing to fix. Peace or war. They may have used sandbag drags for all I know to keep operating planes but the dished deck, pranged deframed hull and an cat and a trap wire out is NTG from "glancing blows."

HMS Victorious (R38) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looks like her troubles chased her postwar. What a mess.

McP.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Your own posts have her able to land on aircraft within 12 ours of the Kamikaze hit and FULLY OPERATIONAL 2 days later. The information states that one wire was wrecked, not all of them. As for accumulated battle damage affecting her post war, what do you expect after four and a half to five years of hard use, and Enterprize which was the same generation of ship and had seen a similar amount of hard use had to be scraped.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

PLP: if your arrestor gear is wrecked, for an aircraft carrier, that is a mission kill. And that is not an easy thing to fix. Peace or war. They may have used sandbag drags for all I know to keep operating planes but the dished deck, pranged deframed hull and an cat and a trap wire out is NTG from "glancing blows."

HMS Victorious (R38) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looks like her troubles chased her postwar. What a mess.

McP.

Accelerator (ie catapult ), not arresting gear

read the damage report properly

Rapid-set concrete and timber-infill made good the 'dent' in HMS Formidable's armoured flight deck within hours of the direct hit by a 500lb bomb-wielding kamikaze.