WI - Germany kept close ties with China at the outbreak of WW2?

[ric350]

Folks, I was surprised to read how close Germany and China were just prior to the outbreak of WW2, providing arms, training, etc. However Hitler dumped China when Japan attacked it, thinking Japan and it’s strong military, would be a better ally (though that proved to be wishful thinking).

What if instead, Hitler saw China as a manpower resource to be used in his eventual attack on Russia? Hitler convinces Chiang Kai-shek, that with Germany’s guidance and military supplies, he can be the “Mussolini of the East” and together they can fight communism. This would also give Hitler an additional “training area” like Spain was. Hitler then tells Japan to keep their mitts off China and focus on Indochina, as Germany will soon have their sights on the French and Dutch, and then be able to negotiate a peace with Britain (so he thinks).
In the mean time, Hitler would be telling Stalin not to worry as Germany is using China as a deterrent against Japanese western expansion. As Stalin still thought he and Hitler were BFFs even after the fighting in Spain, and Russia’s previous troubles with Japan, this isn’t too much of a stretch.

So now Germany would have an ally with massive manpower on Russia‘s southeastern border. Japan would not get bogged down in China and could focus its war plans entirely on Southeast Asia. How will WW2 play out now? Would Britain move more resources to the East, possibly weakening the Med?

Thoughts? (apologies if this has been discussed before).

ric350

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[JudgeKing]

China would still be part of the Allies because of its alliance with the United States. What exactly could Hitler promise Chiang that FDR couldn't promise a hundred fold?

 

[RedSword12]

If Hitler decides to go with China instead of Japan, wouldn't he want war, so the German military can use it as a testing ground (although I suppose the Chinese Civil War could allow for that too)? Also, if Hitler chooses China over Japan, why would Japan listen if he tells them to shove off from China? They wanted those resources, and the words of a German dictator thousands of miles away, with whom they have very few ties to, wouldn't affect their rationale to do it ITTL.

 

[Pelranius]

There's really no way for Hitler to send any meaningful amount of support to China (not to mention the Third Reich's money problems).

 

[ric350]

Apparently Germany was already providing China with industrial and military aid, right up to the Japanese invasion, so they could have been well entrenched in China’s development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941)

Even if it was as basic as providing Mausers and ammo, that’s still a massive military force (as Mao proved later). Then add German military indoctrination.

As for the Japanese, Indochina has every resource they could possibly want, without 250 million obstacles. Plus they get a secure western flank, “liberate” Indochina from those damn white devils, and a chance later to join in and grab some Russian territory for being “team players”.

ric350

 

[RedSword12]

Apparently Germany was already providing China with industrial and military aid, right up to the Japanese invasion, so they could have been well entrenched in China’s development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino–German_cooperation_(1926–1941)

Even if it was as basic as providing Mausers and ammo, that’s still a massive military force (as Mao proved later). Then add German military indoctrination.

As for the Japanese, Indochina has every resource they could possibly want, without 250 million obstacles. Plus they get a secure western flank, “liberate” Indochina from those damn white devils, and a chance later to join in and grab some Russian territory for being “team players”.

ric350

I am well aware of the extent of Sino-German cooperation. But the Japanese invasion of China did not hinge on German cooperation with it, or the lack thereof. Germany was never an important ally, nor was it one in 1937.

 

[thaddeus]

China offers huge economic benefits, dwarfing any potential dealings with Japan, that was known at the time, but they offer little or no military value to the Nazi regime.

guess from the German perspective they grasped a deal with the military power at the time (Japan), assuming they could renew trade relations with the collaborator China regime (or Japan itself) in the future?

 

[raharris1973]

China offers huge economic benefits, dwarfing any potential dealings with Japan, that was known at the time,

Funny, where were the huge economic benefits for the powers that remained politically more pro-Chinese during the 1930s and the Sino-Japanese war like the Soviet Union, USA, Britain and France?

In fact, during the Sino-Japanese war, didn't the sales of US metals and fuels to Japan dwarf any American trade to China?

Rare earth metals like tungsten are nice, but let's not go all ga-ga and blow things out of proportion.

 

[thaddeus]

China offers huge economic benefits, dwarfing any potential dealings with Japan, that was known at the time, but they offer little or no military value to the Nazi regime.

guess from the German perspective they grasped a deal with the military power at the time (Japan), assuming they could renew trade relations with the collaborator China regime (or Japan itself) in the future?

Funny, where were the huge economic benefits for the powers that remained politically more pro-Chinese during the 1930s and the Sino-Japanese war like the Soviet Union, USA, Britain and France?

In fact, during the Sino-Japanese war, didn't the sales of US metals and fuels to Japan dwarf any American trade to China?

Rare earth metals like tungsten are nice, but let's not go all ga-ga and blow things out of proportion.

sorry if that was unclear, my reference was only applying to Germany and a comparison of the benefits between China and Japan. also Germany was able to barter stockpiles of weapons for raw materials with China, a scenario the other Western powers would not have needed?

 

[jsb]

Hitler then tells Japan to keep their mitts off China

AJA Mk II come 39.....?

 

[Airborne2001]

Didn't Germany play a significant role in training Chinese divisions to become a lot stronger than they were prior to WWII?

 

[Nivek]

Means Nothing long term, the pacific become the weird theatre than Usa and Nazi Germany were estrangled allies rather enemies

 

[thaddeus]

AJA Mk II come 39.....?

Means Nothing long term, the pacific become the weird theatre than Usa and Nazi Germany were estrangled allies rather enemies

there certainly would be an odd dynamic in the Pacific (at least), Germany would have alienated Japan, then if they drop their cooperation with the USSR they would have little or no way to continue dealings with China?

the interwar plan by German Gen. von Seeckt was for cooperation/collaboration with USSR and China albeit not a full alliance (or counting on one), the idea being not to repeat the resource shortages of WWI.

historically the USSR had agreed to a floating base of sorts in Kamchatka in the Pacific for the KM, and they had contracts with China for S-boat and U-boats.