WI: Germany buids two aircraft carriers instead of the Twins?

I doubt it. Nazi ideology centered primarily centered around land expansion, so 2 aircraft carriers seem unlikely in the first place.
 
And building two Carriers would inflame balls at the Admiralty as you can't go "Oh..they are defensive....honest..." A carrier is a blatantly aggressive weapon, and you'd not need it to deal with the French or Poles, this is clearly a threat aimed at the UK, so there might well be reactions and changes to ship construction in the UK.

Also the Graf Zepplin design was grossly inefficient, they gave up a lot for their speed and their 5.9 mounts, also the design had a permanent list when loaded with fuel, which was to be corrected with the addition of bulges but this would have had a side effect of making them miserable sea boats.
 
I dont Think we Can do this discussion without a pod that explains the decisions.
Here is an attempt: IOTL Germany practised Technology and doctrines in the SU. There were plans for a naval aviation base on the Black Sea that got cancelled. Lets assumed it didn't and the Germans reached the conclusions that carriers Will be not only effective scouts, but also an effective offensive weapon.
Then you have all the accessories (torpedoes among others) in place and a fleet air arm in the making pre-Goehring's luftwaffe.
Also, the Germans were allowed to study Japanese carriers before the design of the Graf Zeppelin, but they didn't have time for an offerred demonstration of their operation (sic!). ITTL it would be done in late 1920's with the German design years in the making.
So, Germany makes two good carriers, what happens next and what to do with them?
To see these with B&T (or maybe actually two more laid down) in the mid Atlantic would be quite a head-ache
 
Although I think that the OP is a good idea in theory, that can't work in practice...
Who is going to escort them?
In 1933 they had the 3 K class light cruisers and Leipzig would have done for a start had the Kriegsmarine got their fingers out and given their hulls the strengthening required for employment in the Atlantic. IIRC only Karlsure was rebuilt IOTL.

IOTL the Germans wanted to build Kreuzer F (Nurnberg) to a larger design displacing 8,000 tons, even though that would have broken the Treaty of Versailles. She had to be built as a repeat of Leipzig because the designers were working on what became the Hipper class. The first two of them were ordered while the Treaty of Versailles was still in force. IMHO had the Germans designed the 8,000 ton light cruiser instead of the Hipper class they could have built at least 6 of them instead of Nurnberg and the 5 Hippers and had all 6 in commission by September 1939.

Also in the early 1930s IMHO the Germans were perfectly capable of designing and building an ocean going destroyer instead of the OTL Z-boats had they decided that was the type of large destroyer that they required.

It would also help if the 8,000 ton light cruiser and ocean going destroyer had low pressure boilers to avoid the problems that the OTL Hipper class and the Z-boats had with the premature introduction of high pressure boilers.
 
They'd also really need to work on fuel econimy, the German DD's had incredibly short legs so they'd not be able to do their escort mission into the Atlantic without basically running on fumes by the time they get to the GUIK gap, being towed, or the Germans getting very good with alongside replenishment with the carriers acting as tankers for their DDs.
 
I dont Think we Can do this discussion without a pod that explains the decisions.

Here is an attempt: IOTL Germany practised Technology and doctrines in the SU. There were plans for a naval aviation base on the Black Sea that got cancelled. Lets assumed it didn't and the Germans reached the conclusions that carriers Will be not only effective scouts, but also an effective offensive weapon.

Then you have all the accessories (torpedoes among others) in place and a fleet air arm in the making pre-Goehring's Luftwaffe.

Also, the Germans were allowed to study Japanese carriers before the design of the Graf Zeppelin, but they didn't have time for an offerred demonstration of their operation (sic!). ITTL it would be done in late 1920's with the German design years in the making.

So, Germany makes two good carriers, what happens next and what to do with them?

To see these with B&T (or maybe actually two more laid down) in the mid Atlantic would be quite a head-ache
If the Kreigsmarine is going to follow this route then IMHO it should be all or nothing with another pair of aircraft carriers laid down instead of B&T as suggested in the final sentence above.

I think an additional pair of 30,000 ton aircraft carriers would have taken less time to build than the OTL pair of 41,000 ton battleships and certainly consumed less steel. That would also release resources to accelerate the completion of the pair of 30,000 ton aircraft carriers also being built in place of the OTL Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B.

However, the OTL Anglo-German Naval Agreement allowed Germany 47,250 tons of aircraft carriers and six 30,000 ton aircraft carriers equals 180,000 tons.
 
They'd also really need to work on fuel economy, the German DD's had incredibly short legs so they'd not be able to do their escort mission into the Atlantic without basically running on fumes by the time they get to the GUIK gap, being towed, or the Germans getting very good with alongside replenishment with the carriers acting as tankers for their DDs.
That was the OTL German destroyers designed for operations in the North Sea. IIRC that was made worse in the first 16 Z-boats because they had to keep their fuel tanks partially filled to maintain stability.

If the Germans had decided that they wanted an ocean going destroyer it is axiomatic that they would have been designed to have longer ranges than the OTL German destroyers. With regard to fuel economy they might have been given combined steam and diesel machinery like Germany's OTL light cruisers of the K and Leipzig classes. The steam was for speed and the diesel was for endurance.

Though you mentioning aircraft carriers acting as tankers reminds me that IMHO the German Dithmarschen class fast tanker design was capable of being converted into an aircraft carrier along the lines of the American Sangamon and Commencement Bay class escort carriers. According to the German-navy.de website only 5 out of the 9 ships ordered were built. The construction of a large number of them starting in 1933 as a shadow carrier programme under the guise of providing work for Germany's shipyards and rejuvenating the tanker fleet of Germany's merchant marine would be a good idea (not necessarily a feasible one, but a good one).

According to figures I have from the British official history on Merchant Shipping and the Demands of War Germany had 37 tankers displacing over 1,600 tons of 256,000 tons, gross and 384,000 tons, deadweight. Therefore building more tankers in the 1930s might be a good idea for that reason only.
 
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Here is an attempt: IOTL Germany practised Technology and doctrines in the SU. There were plans for a naval aviation base on the Black Sea that got cancelled. Lets assumed it didn't and the Germans reached the conclusions that carriers Will be not only effective scouts, but also an effective offensive weapon.
Best option would be to convert an old merchant ship into a carrier in 1934 and gain the carrier experience.
One of the reasons why I think it's a good idea in theory that won't work in practice is the Germans lack of experience at designing and operating aircraft carriers their aircraft.

Therefore if they are going to have the Black Sea naval aviation base they should convert a suitable merchant ship to an experimental aircraft carrier in a Black Sea shipyard as a joint project with the Soviets. It would officially belong to the Red Navy but have Reichsmarine officers in key positions.

Then along the lines of what PSL has suggested they convert a merchant ship into an aircraft carrier as soon as the Nazis. However, in this case it would have the benefit of the experience gained from the Black Sea ship.
 
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THe probme is that steam/deasil was still unreliable and the diesel engines were big and heavy, taking up a lot of hull space which would mean these DD's would be even bigger.
 
The problem is that steam/diesel was still unreliable and the diesel engines were big and heavy, taking up a lot of hull space which would mean these DD's would be even bigger.
Fair enough we will keep them as steam only ships. Large size isn't necessarily a problem because it might make them more seaworthy. The Americans managed to design successful ocean going destroyers in the 1930s. IMHO the Germans were capable of doing so too if they decided that this was the type of ship that they needed.

Edit

Before I went out I had a look at my reference books and the German Types 1936 (Z-17 to Z-22) and 1936B carried a similar armament as the American Fletcher class, but on a bigger hull with machinery producing 70,000 shp instead of 60,000 shp. AFAIK the Types 1936 and 1936B were a lot more seaworthy than the Type 1934 and Type 1934A (Z-1 to Z-16). IIRC from Whitley the only Type 1936 that wasn't sunk at Narvik (Karl Glaster) had an exemplary serviceability record. Therefore a task force of one 30,000 ton CV, a pair of 8,000 ton light cruiser and a quartet of Type 1936 supported by a Dithmarschen class fast tanker might work.
 
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That means the Graf Zeppelin and it's twin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf_Zeppelin-class_aircraft_carrier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin
What makes Goering stop being a dick about the aircraft/pilot issue?
I haven't read the links, but from my own notes...

IOTL the Germans formed their first aircraft carrier squadrons in November 1938. These were 4.(Stuka)/186 a new unit on 1st November 1938 and 6.(Jagd)/186 from 4./JG136 on 15th November 1938. A second aircraft carrier fighter squadron 5.(Jagd)/186 was formed as a new unit on 15th July 1939. At the same time the FAA had 15 aircraft carrier squadrons.

When war broke out the Luftwaffe immediately doubled its force of carrier aircraft to 6 squadrons (3 fighter and 3 Stuka) and formed a pair of gruppe stabs too. However, on 5th July 1940 I./Tr.Gr.186 became III./St.G.1 and ii./Tr.Gr.186 became III./JG77. But in defence of the Luftwaffe the Kriegsmarine suspended Graff Zeppelin in June 1940 and AFIAK Aircraft Carrier B had been suspended even earlier.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I agree about all the objections to the rationality about getting carriers instead of the twins for the KM. But at least it might give the FAA a boost some years ahead of OTL, and that might be decisive - but most likely in the Far East. As usual with European naval PoDs.
 
KM Kreuzers of the K/L class could only manage 2500-3000nm @ 19kts...reaching 3350 @ 18kts with the Karlsruhe mod, which also increased the hull armor , while reducing speed to 31 knots standard. Basically the only marginally better than the abysmal Zerstroers programme.

Best you can do within these limits is operate north of the GIUK gap.

BTW Zerstroers were planned with endurance of 4000-4400nm @19kts, but the poor miniaturization of the high pressure /temperature demanded continues fuel consumption crippling endurance. Even late war models were supposed to exceed 5000nm@19knts but only got 2500-2900nm@19 in practice.

Seems Germans were no good at steam turbine development. They should have stuck with diesel development.
 
KM Kreuzers of the K/L class could only manage 2500-3000nm @ 19kts...reaching 3350 @ 18kts with the Karlsruhe mod, which also increased the hull armor , while reducing speed to 31 knots standard. Basically the only marginally better than the abysmal Zerstroers programme.

Best you can do within these limits is operate north of the GIUK gap.

BTW Zerstroers were planned with endurance of 4000-4400nm @19kts, but the poor miniaturization of the high pressure /temperature demanded continues fuel consumption crippling endurance. Even late war models were supposed to exceed 5000nm@19knts but only got 2500-2900nm@19 in practice.

Seems Germans were no good at steam turbine development. They should have stuck with diesel development.

Turbines were not the main problem, it was the high presure superheated boilers that were. This technology was so advanced, the teethingproblems had not yet been solved completely, sicne the navy just had started using these in the mid 30's and nor earlier, due to political and economical reasons.

Moreover, The discussion as not about the older cruisers and destroyers, as these were not part of the Plan-Z. The ocean going fleet was to be completely newly build from scratch, including the carriers.THough the Scharnhorst class was not technically part of the Plan-Z innitially, they were included when the plan was drawn, as were the new aircraft carriers. Had these aircraft carries been completed and by some wonder given an airgroup, they wopuld be deployed as lone raiders as planned, which is indicated by the pressence of the twin 5.9 inch cassematted LA QF guns on the hangardecklevel. The ship was seen as a large, though lightly armed very fast cruiser, intended for commerceraiding, while it had a bonus of an airgroup for selfdefence.
 
A poster suggested destroyer & these light Kreuzers as escorts. Z Plan was examined in the late 1930s. The plans I was looking at predate those of the Z-Plan by 10 years [1928 is early reference.

Besides if the KM invested in carriers they would have been to escort the larger capital ships as they break through the GIUK GAP & head out on raiding missions, so operations north of the GIUK Gap would work.
 
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A poster suggested destroyer & these light Kreuzers as escorts.
It was me and in my defence I did suggest that they be accompanied by a Dithmarschen class fast tanker.

However, now I'm going off the idea. At least as far as the Z-type destroyers goes.

AFAIK one of the problems with the K class (and the first 16 Z-boats) is that they had to keep their tanks part full to maintain stability because of their weakly built hulls and that restricted their range. It was proposed to rebuild them and strengthen their hulls, but only the Karlsure was rebuilt before World War II broke out, actually IIRC Karlsure's was in progress when World War II broke out.

Edit

Here's a quote from German Cruisers of World War Two by M.J.Whitley
The advantage of these measures, apart from strengthening, was an increase in bunkerage, better side protection and the capability of operating two aircraft. Until completed, however, operational restrictions were placed on all except Emden. This meant that Konigsberg, Karlsure and Nurnberg were restricted to home waters and the North Sea. Leipzig and Koln could be used in Spanish waters, but only at favourable times of the year and even then forward and aft bunkers had to be emptied. For stability reasons, the "K" ships had to retain 680 tonnes of fuel at all times, and Nurnberg 150 tonnes, with a consequent effect on their endurance.
 
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hipper

Banned
HMS Renown was not a very fast ship anymore after her refit, with a top speed of 28-29 knots at best. A Graf Zeppelin was more powerful in tems of engineering and could do 35+ knots, meaning some 7 knots speedadvantage over the old warhorse. Renown also had to deal withh a weak armament of just six main guns, hardly sufficient for effective fire on fast moving targets. Basically it is th turttle vs the hare.


hmm HMS Renown was the fastest Capital ship in The RN after the Hood was sunk, and may have been faster than the hood in her unmodified state. I don't think you can call her not a very fast ship. She got told off for overloading her boilers when transporting Winston about the place.

How do you know the Graf Zeppelin had 35 knots I don't believe she was ever given sea trials and she did have a bit of a list....
 
Original Graff Zeppelin was calculated to be ~ 24-28,000 tons and could have reached 35 knots based on ~ 200,000hp propulsion. But the design was modified to 33,500ton max displacement, so speed was unlikely to be above 33 knots. In fact using the power cube law 200k/28kt = 7.14hp/ton compared to 200k/33.5 = 5.97 hp/ton. If 28,000tons = 35 knots the tabular figure @ 33,500tons should = 32.97 knots.
 
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