WI: Germany buids two aircraft carriers instead of the Twins?

The Twins being Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the two carriers being around 30000 tons standard, both CVs commisioned during the winter of 1938/39.
 
This implies attention has been paid to torpedo & bomber development, along with a suitable carrier fighter. Not the half assed proposals usually made for the Graf Zepplin. Since there is negligable surface fleet to support Raeder or whoever is going to have to come up with a new doctrine, other than what everyone else is following in the 1930s.
 

Deleted member 1487

This implies attention has been paid to torpedo & bomber development, along with a suitable carrier fighter. Not the half assed proposals usually made for the Graf Zepplin. Since there is negligable surface fleet to support Raeder or whoever is going to have to come up with a new doctrine, other than what everyone else is following in the 1930s.
IIRC the plan was to use fighters and dive bombers as of 1939, so just 'carrier-zed' Me109s and Ju87s, plus probably some recon aircraft.
 
Have you ever thought of the problems the Kriegsmarine had in operating aircraft under its own control? Luftwaffe aircraft were used under Luftwaffe control, not the Kriegsmarine, so building carriers is one thing in the 3rd Reich, having them operating aircraft tis another type of business.

If no aircraft were provided by the Luftwaffe, these ships were useless scne they were armed like a cruiser as well, but were so large and vulnerable, even a single hit of an armed merchant ship could inflict serious harm.

BTW, some still think Germany needed escorts to protect the carrier. This is thinking the Allied way. Graf Zeppeling was designed as a sort of lone wolf to operate alone against merchantships, with guns to attack merchantships and aircraft mainly for selfdefense against warships. With her very high speed of over 35 knots, she was very well capable of running from all allied warships, if needed, while her large size would allow her to maintain high speed, which a small destroyer could not maintain in a swell, normally found in the Atlantic.
 
The Twins being Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the two carriers being around 30000 tons standard, both CVs commisioned during the winter of 1938/39.
They may be commissioned but carrier aviation is perhaps the most challenging of all military aviation. The Germans have no experience at all in that field. By the time those ships are combat ready leaving the Baltic would be suicide. All the Germans do by building them is have Britain place a higher priority on their own carrier programme earlier, which probably means more Ark Royal class being built instead of the first Illustrious class ships.
 
Rather than Glorious sunk by the twins, we see the ATL twins sunk by Renown...
:openedeyewink:

Okay, those particular actions are probably butterflied, but any Norwegian campaign has the distinct possibility of putting the German carriers under risk of surface attack.
 
Have you ever thought of the problems the Kriegsmarine had in operating aircraft under its own control?

Agreed, the Fat One is going to have a fit with high-performance aircraft not under his control. He had enough trouble with the floatplanes and flying boats, so letting fighters and dive-bombers out of his grasp will be a fight.

Then you've got to learn how to operate a carrier and it's air wing plus all the other things. Need to take baby steps and get a LOT of help from the IJN...
 
Rather than Glorious sunk by the twins, we see the ATL twins sunk by Renown...
:openedeyewink:

Okay, those particular actions are probably butterflied, but any Norwegian campaign has the distinct possibility of putting the German carriers under risk of surface attack.


HMS Renown was not a very fast ship anymore after her refit, with a top speed of 28-29 knots at best. A Graf Zeppelin was more powerful in tems of engineering and could do 35+ knots, meaning some 7 knots speedadvantage over the old warhorse. Renown also had to deal withh a weak armament of just six main guns, hardly sufficient for effective fire on fast moving targets. Basically it is th turttle vs the hare.
 

nbcman

Donor
Agreed, the Fat One is going to have a fit with high-performance aircraft not under his control. He had enough trouble with the floatplanes and flying boats, so letting fighters and dive-bombers out of his grasp will be a fight.

Then you've got to learn how to operate a carrier and it's air wing plus all the other things. Need to take baby steps and get a LOT of help from the IJN...
The Germans were not on good terms with the Japanese until 1938 so the Germans won't have much help until then. So the Germans are on their own for the most part on trying to build a complex combination of warship and Naval aviation.
 

Deleted member 94680

Indeed and it should be noted the British were experimenting with and trialling Naval Aviation for twenty-odd years - look at the problems they had.

Is it really feasible to expect the Nazis - with their fractured, competitive, back-biting 'leadership' - to build, trial, train and construct doctrine for two brand new aircraft carriers? All of this in time for useful service in WWII?
 
first it is highly unlikely the Twins would be scrapped in favor of carriers, the first capital ships under Nazi regime?

possibly in lieu of Hipper-class heavy cruisers? (which still launches GZ a year earlier)

(my view they SHOULD have developed more robust seaplanes which could then use all the existing ships, tenders, etc including auxiliary cruisers)
 
Indeed and it should be noted the British were experimenting with and trialling Naval Aviation for twenty-odd years - look at the problems they had.

Is it really feasible to expect the Nazis - with their fractured, competitive, back-biting 'leadership' - to build, trial, train and construct doctrine for two brand new aircraft carriers? All of this in time for useful service in WWII?

The British, the Americans, and the Japanese - all three had been playing with carrier based air for a good two decades when WWII started. Even with that all three had problems and made plenty of mistakes. The idea of the Germans or anybody else developing even a semi-viable carrier force from scratch in less than five years before the start of WWII is a pretty tall order.
 
.... The idea of the Germans or anybody else developing even a semi-viable carrier force from scratch in less than five years before the start of WWII is a pretty tall order.

Yup. If these are to be anywhere near the Brits in capability there needs to be a PoD far earlier. A sustained interest in pre 1914-1918 maritime aviation, a secret research and test facility in the USSR like the Reichswehr had, ect.. ect... So instead of starting carrier construction circa 1936 or 37 it starts shortly after nazi accesion in 1934, and is drawing from a decade plus of research on a joint Soviet German test ship/s. But that brings us to the question of mission???

what would they be used for?
who is going to escort them?

Escort them is a lesser question. Who would they support is the larger. Doctrine of the Brits, US, and Japanese was the carriers supported the battle fleet. Scouting and preliminary attrition of the enemy fleet was their mission. To weaken it previous to the Big Battle. But the German carriers are coming to the party with no dance partner. A couple carriers, some destroyers, and a handful of light cruisers... To make this useful the Germans will need to rethink naval doctrine down to its roots.

...
(my view they SHOULD have developed more robust seaplanes which could then use all the existing ships, tenders, etc including auxiliary cruisers)

Japanese naval aviation went with both seaplanes, and land based VLR maritime bombers. 1930s Germany had some potiential there.
 
Firstly HOSCHSEEFLOTTE had an aircraft carrier in 1919...but it was not finished, sound familiar? ;)

Secondly the 1928 naval plan included an aircraft carrier plus 6 Panzerschiffe D, E,F.G.H & J , which Hitler morphed into "The Twins"+ Bismarck, Tirpitz, BB H & BB J plus two carriers [GZ & PS].

thirdly this 1928 naval plan also included a requirement for 400 aircraft for the Kriegsmarine.

Ergo remove Hitler's catastrophic influence on KM development and the floating fat mans influence on Lufthansa==>Luftwaffe development...all things become possible.
 
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Firstly HOSCHSEEFLOTTE had an aircraft carrier in 1919...but it was not finished, sound familiar? ;)

Secondly the 1928 naval plan included an aircraft carrier plus 6 Panzerschiffe D, E,F.G.H & J , which Hitler morphed into "The Twins"+ Bismarck, Tirpitz, BB H & BB J plus two carriers [GZ & PS].

thirdly this 1928 naval plan also included a requirement for 400 aircraft for the Kriegsmarine.

Ergo remove Hitler's catastrophic influence on KM development and the floating fat mans influence on Lufthansa==>Luftwaffe development...all things become possible.

The floating fat man?

upload_2017-4-22_21-34-36.png
 
The British, the Americans, and the Japanese - all three had been playing with carrier based air for a good two decades when WWII started. Even with that all three had problems and made plenty of mistakes. The idea of the Germans or anybody else developing even a semi-viable carrier force from scratch in less than five years before the start of WWII is a pretty tall order.

This basically.

I maintain that Germany should leverage what they are good at - Aeroplanes and submarines 'not' aircraft carriers.

Why did the u-boats fail in WW1 - the Convoy system.

Whats the best way to find those convoys - LRMP Aircraft - Germany had a pretty good LR Aircraft which it could use as a basis for a VLR MPA - the Condor.

Build more of them and improve upon the design.

Also at some point all ships coming to the UK...must come to the UK. So have LR Twin engined bombers that will be designed to patrol the East coast of England searching for Merchantmen by day and capable of deploying air dropped mines by night. Shut down east coast shipping and that mega tonnes of shipping that has to go via Western ports.

Then if and when Geography changes go for the western approaches as well

Germany needs to win the Battle for the Atlantic in order to win WW2 - personally I give them a snowball's chance in Hell - geography and numbers was always going to go against them.

Carriers is something that they have never done and while the Graf Zeppelin design might have been fast - I still maintain that a carrier being built in the 30s is intended to provide support for a balanced fleet and will still need escorting.
 
With naval plan 1928 they stipulated 1 aircraft carrier, yet all the battles within the admiralty were about how many Panzerschiffe do they build in the 1930s...should they get 6 heavy Panzerschiffe with 3 triple turrets or 8 medium Panzerschiffe with 2 triple turrets.

They wanted bigger guns going from 11" to 13" guns , but Hitler slowed the build rate and repeatedly blocked anything bigger than 11" guns. The Admiralty compromised settling on triple 11" gun turrets that could be converted into twin 14" gun turrets.

Best option would be to convert an old merchant ship into a carrier in 1934 and gain the carrier experience.
 
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