WI: Germany arms the Ukranians?

Germany was not always seen as the big bad against the Soviets. Within the Union Germany found allies in the Baltic Slavs and Ukrainians. However, behind the army came the Einsatzgruppen which quickly turned the Ukrainians against them.

However what if the Germans instead began to arm the Ukrainians and even accepted some into their Army?
 
The Germans did accept some Ukrainians into the German Army. The Waffen SS 14th "Galizien" Divison (later 1st Ukrainian National Army Division).

To do this, you would need to have someone other Hitler in charge. Hitler and the top echelon of the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Slavs and use the land for Lebensraum. Let's say someone like Rommel is in charge. A military leader, a guy who isn't going after Jews and Slavs. This leader would in an alt war with the USSR would certainly arm the Ukrainians and Batic Peoples. IOTL Stepan Bandera did declare Ukrainian Independence in L'viv in 1941. However the Gestapo sent him and many others into a concentration camp for political prisoners right afterword. If we are going with a different leader of Germany but assume war on a similar time frame as OTL, (totally hypothetical) then Germany would likely assist in the declaration of an independent Ukrainian state. This new state would probably be led by either faction of the OUN, though more than likely the OUN-B/R of Stepan Bandera. This state would immediately be attempting to create an army to assist in the liberation of the rest of Soviet occupied Ukraine. They would probably consist of many of IOTL's Ukrainian Insurgent Army members. Without Hitler the war and all of Europe is so immediately different that its impossible to say what would happen.

If we just go semi-ASB and have Hitler not think Slavs are sub-human because he grows a few more brain cells (for the sake of answering the question as realistically butterflies would abound), then we could realistically still see a Soviet Victory though it becomes far less likely. IOTL Millions of Ukrainians died under the Soviet Banner. ITTL They'll be fighting under an independent Ukrainian State. Some will still fight for the Soviets but defections would fairly quickly cause massive problems for Ukrainian Red Army units. Germany IOTL occupied most of Ukraine so ITTL an independent Ukraine takes control of most of that territory. They'll meet some resistance but nothing close to what the Germans IOTL met. They'll soon have many more divisions (likely armed with captured Soviet equipment) and with any luck will be able to reach the industrialized Donbass before the Russians can take or destroy many of the industrial facilities. Once that occurs Ukraine can produce its own weapons though getting the materials to produce their own T-34s etc. unfortunately is not likely as far as I can see, before the end of the war. I don't think a Soviet Victory is likely though it is certainly possible. Volgohrad might fall much faster which almost guarantees a Soviet defeat.
 

Deleted member 1487

Germany was not always seen as the big bad against the Soviets. Within the Union Germany found allies in the Baltic Slavs and Ukrainians. However, behind the army came the Einsatzgruppen which quickly turned the Ukrainians against them.

However what if the Germans instead began to arm the Ukrainians and even accepted some into their Army?
It's VERY tricky, because the Ukrainians remember the German occupation in 1918, didn't really trust Hitler, and had their own plans for the post-war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

It very well might bite the Germans in the ass to have a large, organized insurgent army with a parallel power structure in Ukraine.
 
It's VERY tricky, because the Ukrainians remember the German occupation in 1918, didn't really trust Hitler, and had their own plans for the post-war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

It very well might bite the Germans in the ass to have a large, organized insurgent army with a parallel power structure in Ukraine.
That is very true. The Germans would need to give up on the Lebenraum to go through with this. The UPA and OUN wanted to cooperate to drive out the Soviets but Germany wasn't up for it. That's all. If the Germans changed their minds about Slavs then its easy.
 

Deleted member 1487

That is very true. The Germans would need to give up on the Lebenraum to go through with this. The UPA and OUN wanted to cooperate to drive out the Soviets but Germany wasn't up for it. That's all. If the Germans changed their minds about Slavs then its easy.
I don't think that would even matter if they did (though it certainly wouldn't hurt). The Ukrainians were not about to trade one master for another, even with a more hands off Germany. The Ukrainians wanted help getting the Soviets out...but that doesn't mean they wanted the Germans to stick around or Berlin to dictate to Kiev. Nothing about this time period is easy, its not like the Ukrainians were just willing slaves, they had their own goals that would conflict with even a WW1 Germany that was just interested in typical colonial exploitation, not genocidal settlement.
 
I don't think that would even matter if they did (though it certainly wouldn't hurt). The Ukrainians were not about to trade one master for another, even with a more hands off Germany. The Ukrainians wanted help getting the Soviets out...but that doesn't mean they wanted the Germans to stick around or Berlin to dictate to Kiev. Nothing about this time period is easy, its not like the Ukrainians were just willing slaves, they had their own goals that would conflict with even a WW1 Germany that was just interested in typical colonial exploitation, not genocidal settlement.
Mind you, German policy was dependent on usually a few key men. If Hitler had listened to the ideas of Alfred Rosenberg, then that could have opened up a policy of more leniency towards Slavs.
 

Deleted member 1487

Mind you, German policy was dependent on usually a few key men. If Hitler had listened to the ideas of Alfred Rosenberg, then that could have opened up a policy of more leniency towards Slavs.
Sure, but I'm arguing that even with a totally open policy toward the Ukraininans and setting up a friendly government based on the UPA and OUN would still see the Ukrainians then fighting the Germans at the end of the war to assert their own independence, as Berlin is likely going to try and make them a puppet regime/economic dependency like Hungary, which the Ukrainians won't tolerate.
 
Sure, but I'm arguing that even with a totally open policy toward the Ukraininans and setting up a friendly government based on the UPA and OUN would still see the Ukrainians then fighting the Germans at the end of the war to assert their own independence, as Berlin is likely going to try and make them a puppet regime/economic dependency like Hungary, which the Ukrainians won't tolerate.

I know quite a bit about Ukrainian Nationalism, an independent Ukraine would want to be Its own sovereign Nation. If Germany is led by rational people (a necessary for even getting half way here) than maybe they'll accept having Ukraine as an independent state in Germany's sphere. Frankly as I understand it Germany rather let Croatia and Slovakia be semi independent, but would need to give more independence to Ukraine due to our relative size and power.

Basically it boils down to if Germany is rationally led then they will likely give Ukraine a fair amount of independence as long as the war effort continues efficiently.
 

Deleted member 1487

Basically it boils down to if Germany is rationally led then they will likely give Ukraine a fair amount of independence as long as the war effort continues efficiently.
There's your problem right there, even WW1 Germany wasn't willing to give them the freedom they wanted.
 
There's your problem right there, even WW1 Germany wasn't willing to give them the freedom they wanted.

Eh, that was a different time when the Nationalist movement was dominated completely by Socialist Traitors like Simon Petliura. This Nationalist movement post WWI was decidedly Fascististic and very radical. Ukraine had also expieranced the Holodomer, see what the Holocaust did to the Zionist movement. The Ukrainian Nationalist movement of WWII was not the same as the one before. Germany in WWI tried to extract food forcibly.

Did Germany in WWII even try?
 
What do you think? When they sort of did it was far too late, but even then the UPA and Germans ended up fighting later in the war:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Germany

I meant Germany trying to extract food from Ukrainian peasants.

Though yes you are correct about Germany recognizing Ukrainian independence late in the war, 1945.

Fun fact about the 14th S.S / 1st U.N.A division is that they were the only German Army unit actually rearmed by the allies.
 

Deleted member 1487

I meant Germany trying to extract food from Ukrainian peasants.

Though yes you are correct about Germany recognizing Ukrainian independence late in the war, 1945.

Fun fact about the 14th S.S / 1st U.N.A division is that they were the only German Army unit actually rearmed by the allies.
The US did AFAIK also make use of a bunch of Ukrainians that fled west with the Germans to try and stir up rebellion in Ukraine, but all were effective sent to their death.
 
I think that its possible to have Hitler recognise Ukrainian independence and arm Ukrainian nationalists against Russia. Hitlers argument would be to promise the Ukrainians what ever they want and after the Soviets are defeated stab them in the back. The arms would be surplus lower quality kit (probably captured French and Russian stuff) and the nationalist units could be deliberately roughly handled and dispersed across the entire front to make their indoctrination to national socialism or liquidation easier.

This would be bad for the Russians as the considerable partisan activity behind the German lines would be reduced freeing up more men and material for the front lines. The Ukrainian contribution could be used in anti partisan operations in both the Soviet Union and the Balkans (where their lack of perceived quality would be less of an issue) again improving the position of the Germans (I seem to remember reading about this happening OTL but it would be on a much greater scale ITTL).

I think it might mean that the Russians wouldn't get as far into eastern Europe and the allies would get further into Germany than OTL. With the war lasting a few months longer. Further it would mean a less harsh occupation in Ukraine (and other Soviet satellites) until liberated by the Russians!
 
The US did AFAIK also make use of a bunch of Ukrainians that fled west with the Germans to try and stir up rebellion in Ukraine, but all were effective sent to their death.

Eh, as far as I know most were simply resettled. I did hear that some were used a spys behind Russian lines. Not a lot made it out of the Soviet Union. The 14th s.s veterans were also quietly resettled in the United States.


I think that its possible to have Hitler recognise Ukrainian independence and arm Ukrainian nationalists against Russia. Hitlers argument would be to promise the Ukrainians what ever they want and after the Soviets are defeated stab them in the back. The arms would be surplus lower quality kit (probably captured French and Russian stuff) and the nationalist units could be deliberately roughly handled and dispersed across the entire front to make their indoctrination to national socialism or liquidation easier.

This would be bad for the Russians as the considerable partisan activity behind the German lines would be reduced freeing up more men and material for the front lines. The Ukrainian contribution could be used in anti partisan operations in both the Soviet Union and the Balkans (where their lack of perceived quality would be less of an issue) again improving the position of the Germans (I seem to remember reading about this happening OTL but it would be on a much greater scale ITTL).

I think it might mean that the Russians wouldn't get as far into eastern Europe and the allies would get further into Germany than OTL. With the war lasting a few months longer. Further it would mean a less harsh occupation in Ukraine (and other Soviet satellites) until liberated by the Russians!

I think the effect would be greater, by far. Stalingrad might fall before the Russians can set up proper defenses. IOTL The Germans almost captured Stalingrad without much of a fight but elected not to enter the city until it was too late. With the Ukrainian front collapsing the Germans and Ukrainians might be able to take the city basically without a fight. After that Astrakhan and Baku will be easy. We might see a repeat of WWI in Eastern Europe as the Allies invade Italy and France. The chaos will be rather large. Nukes might have to be used against Germany.
 
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