WI: Germans invade the Middle East in WWII
- Thread starter ryackov
- Start date
True. Hitler send troops to North Africa only because him had help Mussolini. And I don't see that Germans can get whole Middle East although they would get Arabs as their allies. There was too much British and Free French troops. And probably local Jewish militants cause problems to Germans too.
Anaxagoras
Banned
It would have been impossible due to logistics. How would you keep such a force supplied with spare parts for its vehicles or ammunition for its weapons?
Simple answer: no.
Germany and Italy lacked the merchant shipping to supply a large army in North Africa and attack into the Middle East. Such a campaign would have been fuel-intensive, fighting the most severe constraint the Axis had.
It's true that on the other hand, Britain was stretched very hard to maintain its Middle East/North Africa forces at such a great distance.
If Germany had decided on an all-out campaign into the Middle East instead of BARBAROSSA...
More force could have been deployed - the Germans sent a small Panzer Army to Tunisia in late 1942. This greater effort probably could defeat the British in Libya/Egypt in 1941.
But then the Axis has to march overland to Iraq - not a short distance - entirely by road movement, including supplies. The French in Syria and the Arabs in Iraq were sympathetic, and would assist (as they cooperatedf with Axis moves OTL). So maybe the Germans could reach Iraq.
But they're still a long way from India, and at the end of a long trucks-only supply line.
JAG88
Banned
Adm. Raeder pushed for a Mediterranean strategy leaving Russia for later, by focusing on the Med the Brits are likely beat in 1941. Iraq is reached as it was intended in 1941, via railroad through Turkey, with the British beat and pretty much no alternative they would have had to accept and allow the Germans to "liberate" the Iraquis that had already revolted in April 1941 and attempted to expel the British.
Now Iran is a more tricky issue... here you are stepping into Russia's toes and its long lasting wish of breaking into the Indian OCean... and getting more oil.
So there it is, goodbye British oil and Germany, Russia and soon Japan are on India's doorstep, that by then was making independence noises forcing the Brits to arrest a couple hundred thousand people...
Now Iran is a more tricky issue... here you are stepping into Russia's toes and its long lasting wish of breaking into the Indian OCean... and getting more oil.
So there it is, goodbye British oil and Germany, Russia and soon Japan are on India's doorstep, that by then was making independence noises forcing the Brits to arrest a couple hundred thousand people...
E.Ransom
Banned
I don't see this happening without the intervention of what I have come to learn the forum calls ASBs.
The Axis had enough trouble in Northern Africa as it was. Altered circumstances, and luck, MIGHT have resulted in an Axis victory in Northern Africa, and occupation of North Africa and the Palestine Mandate. However, Hitler did not have the ressources to go all the way to mo-fo'ing India
To do that, he'd have to successfully invade, and hold, Iraq and Persia, which is a lot LOT harder than it sounds writing it here.
To push to India (for what purpose, anyway?), the Wehrmacht would need to occupy all of the area between Mandate Palestine and India. As said, that means invading and occupying Iraq and Iran successfully. Now, even if we place this push towards India during the phase where Iraq was a de facto Axis member, thus eliminating the need for an invasion and occupation of that country, they'd still need to invade and occupy Persia, and hold it successfully in order for their supply lines to allow for an invasion of India. This would mean a considerable drain on manpower, not even going into the fact that the German forces weren't at all used to the extreme heat that can be Iraq and Iran in the summer.
Let's say they pull that off, though. Let's say that the Wehrmacht has conquered Persia (securing the oil fields in the process, btw, but this is too little payoff at too high a price). Now they stand at the borders of India.
Why would they want to invade India in the first place? Yeah, sticking it to the Brits by taking the jewel in the crown of the Empire would make a good laugh in the Führerbunker, but I see little strategic and ideological reason for the nazis to do this.
And anyway, a Middle Eastern campaign this extensive, will 100% assuredly put Barbarossa on indefinite hold. Germany WAS powerful, but it was not powerful enough to carry out two extensive invasions across two different theaters.
The main objective was Lebensraum in the east - east meaning Poland and the USSR - and there was simply no reason to bother with the rest of the Middle East, once Northern Africa, Cyprus, Malta, Crete, and Mandate Palestine had been secured.
In a game of Hearts of Iron, I believe I DID do an Axis invasion of India once.
But:
1: What's possible in a computer game is a far cry from what's possible in the real world
2: I cheated, giving myself infinite ressources
tl;dr: Can't be done without ASBs
Logistics makes it difficult to go via North Africa (port capacity in Lybia maxed out supporting the Africa Korp and Italians in OTL).
Diplomacy combined with poor infustructure (hence, logistic difficulties) makes going via Turkey difficult.
If the Germans could swing Vichy France from kinda-sorta-neutral to actively involved I suppose they could go via Syria but that involves getting past the RN... not impossible but certainly non-trivial.
Even if we let the Axis have any of these as a gimme then the distance to advance and lack of infustructure means major logistical issues to advance through Iraq, into Persia and then India...
Diplomacy combined with poor infustructure (hence, logistic difficulties) makes going via Turkey difficult.
If the Germans could swing Vichy France from kinda-sorta-neutral to actively involved I suppose they could go via Syria but that involves getting past the RN... not impossible but certainly non-trivial.
Even if we let the Axis have any of these as a gimme then the distance to advance and lack of infustructure means major logistical issues to advance through Iraq, into Persia and then India...
I don't see this happening without the intervention of what I have come to learn the forum calls ASBs.
The Axis had enough trouble in Northern Africa as it was. Altered circumstances, and luck, MIGHT have resulted in an Axis victory in Northern Africa, and occupation of North Africa and the Palestine Mandate. However, Hitler did not have the ressources to go all the way to mo-fo'ing India
To do that, he'd have to successfully invade, and hold, Iraq and Persia, which is a lot LOT harder than it sounds writing it here.
To push to India (for what purpose, anyway?), the Wehrmacht would need to occupy all of the area between Mandate Palestine and India. As said, that means invading and occupying Iraq and Iran successfully. Now, even if we place this push towards India during the phase where Iraq was a de facto Axis member, thus eliminating the need for an invasion and occupation of that country, they'd still need to invade and occupy Persia, and hold it successfully in order for their supply lines to allow for an invasion of India. This would mean a considerable drain on manpower, not even going into the fact that the German forces weren't at all used to the extreme heat that can be Iraq and Iran in the summer.
Let's say they pull that off, though. Let's say that the Wehrmacht has conquered Persia (securing the oil fields in the process, btw, but this is too little payoff at too high a price). Now they stand at the borders of India.
Why would they want to invade India in the first place? Yeah, sticking it to the Brits by taking the jewel in the crown of the Empire would make a good laugh in the Führerbunker, but I see little strategic and ideological reason for the nazis to do this.
And anyway, a Middle Eastern campaign this extensive, will 100% assuredly put Barbarossa on indefinite hold. Germany WAS powerful, but it was not powerful enough to carry out two extensive invasions across two different theaters.
The main objective was Lebensraum in the east - east meaning Poland and the USSR - and there was simply no reason to bother with the rest of the Middle East, once Northern Africa, Cyprus, Malta, Crete, and Mandate Palestine had been secured.
In a game of Hearts of Iron, I believe I DID do an Axis invasion of India once.
But:
1: What's possible in a computer game is a far cry from what's possible in the real world
2: I cheated, giving myself infinite ressources
tl;dr: Can't be done without ASBs
You make it sound complicated.
Instead of conquering Iran, just have the Shah join the Germans, thinking (as a consequence of some earlier POD) that Britain is on the ropes. Germany sends some Wehrmacht advisers, and two of them wonder off together with their Iranian squadron across the border into India.
Hey presto, Wehrmacht in India !
Logistics was not the main problem;a plan was proposed to Hitler along these lines by a navy captain of admiral Roeder's staff and an army general,all that "in the matter of further prosecution of the war" after the defeat of France;
Jodl wrote in his diary:"they threw a lot of empty hay"(Herman Rauschning:"Hitler Speaks")
The reason for Jodl's remark was that the German army would never march in eastern direction with the Red Army on his northern flank and of course only a handful of people knew that Hitler,even before the capitulation of France and at the beginning of June, had ordered general Paulus to prepare the first draft for "Operation Barbarossa"...
Jodl wrote in his diary:"they threw a lot of empty hay"(Herman Rauschning:"Hitler Speaks")
The reason for Jodl's remark was that the German army would never march in eastern direction with the Red Army on his northern flank and of course only a handful of people knew that Hitler,even before the capitulation of France and at the beginning of June, had ordered general Paulus to prepare the first draft for "Operation Barbarossa"...
No. There's the small matter of Iraq and Iran, as well as military logistics. To do this, the Germans would have to have secured alliances with both Iran and Iraq. Logistically and militarily, there is simply no way the small number of troops the Germans could spare for the middle east could have fought their way to India. And if they made pacts with Iran and Iraq, Britain would react long before Germans got there in force. With little difficulty the Allies overthrew the Iraqi regime early in WW2 when it seemed to be leaning too far Nazi-ward, and (with Soviet help) the British would do it again in Iran if necessray.
The farthest the Axis would be able to get would be Kuwait, if they bullied Turkey into joining them. If they managed to secure an alliance with Iran then maybe they could do some raiding in western India, maybe up to the Indus, but not farther. Once they have an alliance with Iran, though, the military situation for Barbarossa is suddenly much improved.