WI: Germanic tribes to the north form their own "civilization."

Anawrahta

Banned
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With a POD in the 8th century, enable the pagan germanic peoples to the north such as the frisians, thuringians, saxons, and Norsemen, to form a civilization capable of competing both culturally and politically against the Christian civilizations to the south. Any suggestions and criticism will be welcomed with open arms.
 

Deleted member 97083

It was likely too late for Germanic paganism to create a separate civilization because all the powerful Germanic tribes were Romanized. However, there could be an Arrian sphere in opposition to the Chalcedonian one if the Franks refuse to convert.

Also, expanding the last few pagan Germanic tribes like the Alemanni and having them cause as much destruction as possible, as well as expanding the pagan Slavic tribes, could buy some time for this process.
 
WilliamOfOckham

WilliamOfOckham

A PoD in the 8th century? I'd have thought that this would be something classical. The 8th century is way, way too late for Germanic peoples (who were already definitely bridging the gap between "tribes" and "civilisation", if those terms have any real historical use anyway) to set up their own cultural landscape along anything but pan-European, Romanised, and almost certainly Christian lines.
 

Enakan

Childeric I and maybe his grandson ruled the Salian kingdom from Tournai as a Foederatus of the Romans. Childeric and his son Clovis, who received the kingdom from his father, began to extend his influence over other Frankish tribes and expanded further south and west into Gaul. Clovis became a Christian, legitimizing his rule over his Gallo-Roman subjects and thus gained the support of the Church. Frankia subsequently became the most powerful Western European state during the Dark Ages.

Later on more Northern peoples also converted to Christianity, so if you are going for a pagan state versus Christian expansion, it would be an uphill "fight".
 

UpontheHill

Enakan said:
Childeric I and maybe his grandson ruled the Salian kingdom from Tournai as a Foederatus of the Romans. Childeric and his son Clovis, who received the kingdom from his father, began to extend his influence over other Frankish tribes and expanded further south and west into Gaul. Clovis became a Christian, legitimizing his rule over his Gallo-Roman subjects and thus gained the support of the Church. Frankia subsequently became the most powerful Western European state during the Dark Ages.

Later on more Northern peoples also converted to Christianity, so if you are going for a pagan state versus Christian expansion, it would be an uphill "fight".
Click to expand...

Yep. You've got to stop Clovis (or any close approximate) from uniting the Frankish kingdoms and conquering the sub-Roman Gauls. That area would be the beating demographic heart of Europe for a thousand years, a singular Frankish kingdom that controls Gaul is ALWAYS going to represent a fatal threat to the trans-Rhine Germanics. You need to give them a century or two without a united, Christian state in Gaul to develop their own take on things. Significant Christianization or some kind is likely, but monolithic, Chalcedonian Christianization is by no means inevitable when there is no Merovingian/Carolingian monolith to back it up.

I have this dream of one day doing a TL where the last remaining Hellenist scholars/mystics steal a march on the Christians in Germany in the aftermath of their 6th century expulsion from Justinian's empire, some going North and lending neo-Platonic, philosophical depth to Germanic paganism. There's a recurring image I have of a alt-8th century Germanic priest-king welcoming the morning from the heights of a temple to the Unconquered Sun with a ritualistic gulp from a drinking horn. Nothing too detailed beyond that, but it's a compelling fiction.
 
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