WI: German Revolution instead of the French one

Is it possible that a revolution similar to the French Revolution of 1789 would have broken out in the German states of that time? And it would have led to a German version of Napoleon afterwards?
 
Revolution, yes, but only initially similar. The French situation of a centralised kingdom with a revolution in the administrative centre can't be replicated in the HRE. Too many stakeholders. I would assume that it would end in endless legal wrangling and possibly - depending on which state(s) it affected and what threat it posed to outside entities - military intervention.

Napoleon, not a chance. Where would he get the army?
 
Revolution, yes, but only initially similar. The French situation of a centralised kingdom with a revolution in the administrative centre can't be replicated in the HRE. Too many stakeholders. I would assume that it would end in endless legal wrangling and possibly - depending on which state(s) it affected and what threat it posed to outside entities - military intervention.

Napoleon, not a chance. Where would he get the army?

Prussia maybe? They seemed to be able to build large armies

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Prussia maybe? They seemed to be able to build large armies

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Yes, I was mostly thinking about a Revolution that starts in Prussia and a sort of Prussian version of Napoleon imposes it to other weaker German states. Of course, HRE is abolished by the way.

I'll try to develop this scenario with more detail.

Thanks.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
Prussia was too enlighted and did not have famines in these times. It would need a huge POD in Prussia and Germany to get a revolution.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

In/around 1789 I cannot see a revolution in Prussia. No famines and under Frederick the Great (and his father, the soldiers king) there were a lot of reforms made "from above", from the state.
There is simply no pressure that would make a revolution in Prussia at that time. The reforms from above (and some later ones too) have some echos to this day. "Staatstragend" = supportive of the state, this mindset was bolstered by these reforms.
Some historians even say that this is one of the small, but compounding differences between Germany and France, how the state is seen.
 
Yes, I was mostly thinking about a Revolution that starts in Prussia and a sort of Prussian version of Napoleon imposes it to other weaker German states. Of course, HRE is abolished by the way.

I'll try to develop this scenario with more detail.

Thanks.
Don't overestimate 18th century Prussia. It might have been the second strongest state in the HRE (after Austria), but it was far weaker than its 19th century counterpart. 18th century revolutionairy Prussia would not been able to conquer the HRE and probably would be relatively easily be defeated by surrounding states, like Saxony, Sweden, Russia, Austria, etc. Prussia would need good allies and I don't think there are any closeby. At best there would be Patriot Netherlands.
 
Don't overestimate 18th century Prussia. It might have been the second strongest state in the HRE (after Austria), but it was far weaker than its 19th century counterpart. 18th century revolutionairy Prussia would not been able to conquer the HRE and probably would be relatively easily be defeated by surrounding states, like Saxony, Sweden, Russia, Austria, etc. Prussia would need good allies and I don't think there are any closeby. At best there would be Patriot Netherlands.

Well, then could we assume that the Revolution could start in Austria instead of Prussia?
 
Well, then could we assume that the Revolution could start in Austria instead of Prussia?
I do think that a "French" revolution in Austria is more likely than in Prussia, but a revolution in Austria would have its own problems, specifically the large amount of minorities. If a revolution in Austria was succesful, it is likely the Hungarians, Czech, Slowakians, Poles, Italians, Croats, etc would revolt to and secceed. Rump Austria would still be relatively strong, but certainly not capable of doing what France did. It probably would have trouble enough to fight of neighbouring countries who want to restore the monarchy, including France, whose queen was Austrian.
 
I do think that a "French" revolution in Austria is more likely than in Prussia, but a revolution in Austria would have its own problems, specifically the large amount of minorities. If a revolution in Austria was succesful, it is likely the Hungarians, Czech, Slowakians, Poles, Italians, Croats, etc would revolt to and secceed. Rump Austria would still be relatively strong, but certainly not capable of doing what France did. It probably would have trouble enough to fight of neighbouring countries who want to restore the monarchy, including France, whose queen was Austrian.

I think the best scenario, even if challenging, is that the Revolution starts in one state (i.e. Austria) and it's able to spread into other neighbouring states, comprising an alliance between 'revolutionary' states that can fight anti-Revolutionary powers back.
 
Is it possible that a revolution similar to the French Revolution of 1789 would have broken out in the German states of that time? And it would have led to a German version of Napoleon afterwards?

Yeah I can't see this working out. The French revolution happened at least partially because of a combo of the enlightenment dominating the middle class, a series of failed harvests, and the massive debts the country was suffering from. Germany didn't really have any of that. I can see an uprising or revolutionary activity in some of the states, but not across Germany. 1789 wasn't 1848.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Some of these ideas are explored here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.history.what-if/%22french$20revolution%22/soc.history.what-if/y51oIWV4PQE/AUfzyHKJrAQJ

The most intriguing to me is revolution in Joseph II's Austria, the problem is that most assume, probably with good reason, that Austria cannot have revolution without fragmentation,

If a revolution in Austria was succesful, it is likely the Hungarians, Czech, Slowakians, Poles, Italians, Croats, etc would revolt to and secceed

But I wonder if a Carpatho-Danubian or Danubo-Carpathian revolutionary federation is possible. Would we call a united front of revolutionaries the various Habsburg crownlands absolutely impossible?

One thing that's interesting is that many like to say nationalism was an anachronism *until* the French Revolution and after. However, if we assume fragmentation would inevitably happen even in an 18th century Austrian revolution, it sort of comes from an opposite premise that nationalist sentiments were important.

Regardless of what the final borders look like, the best bet for a militarily meaningful revolutionary state in Germany that lasts long enough to have a respectable military career would still be Austria. Austria could end up augmenting its power if it either retains the rest of the Habsburg inheritance in central Europe, or if revolutionary authority and attitudes spread throughout the HRE afterward.


One thing however, making a French revolution hard in Austria is that the various crownlands had individual diets. There was no empire-wide diet or estates general that could be the focal point of the revolution.
 
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