WI: German Poland

[Susano]

But you have to admit it would turn out be a good trade for the Saxon kings. But It could sabotage the creation of a united Germany, especially of the Klein Deutschland solution, with a Prussia (and Austria) banished to the periphery of the German Confederation with large non-German minorities.

Eh, the essential setup of the GC would still be the same, with Austria permanently holding the Presidency, and Prussia being the competiting second power inside it. The two will hence still always fight over influence in Germany. What could happen, though is that Wettin Rhineland-Westphalia due to the Ruhr becomes a near-great power, and that could make things messy...

 

[DuQuense]

?Wouldn't the easiest POD be Napoleon not splitting off a new Poland?, ?Why did He anyway?

 

[Susano]

?Wouldn't the easiest POD be Napoleon not splitting off a new Poland?, ?Why did He anyway?

Primarily to punish Prussia when Prussia turned against their former ally France. Secondarily, to have a puppet state in Poland supporting him, of course.

So, yes, if Prussia just had stayed on Nappys side - but of course, that would have even more far-reaching consequences, as then Nappy wouldnt be defeated. Except I guess when Prussia stabs him in the back with a very good timing...

 

[Thande]

IIRC, Nappy wanted to destroy Prussia altogether - he was certainly in a position to do so after that campaign - but Tsar Alexander threatened war if he did. (Of course, war came in the end anyway).

 

[Susano]

IIRC, Nappy wanted to destroy Prussia altogether - he was certainly in a position to do so after that campaign - but Tsar Alexander threatened war if he did. (Of course, war came in the end anyway).

Which is odd seeing how Russia was to receive East Prussia in that scenario
And Austria was to gain Silesia, the Duchy of Warscaw was to gain West Prussia, Sweden was to gain all of Pommern, and remnaint Brandenburg was to receive a new ruling house - but thats another scenario alltogether. I agree with DuQuense, Prussia just staying allied to Nappy and backstabbing him at the right moment would probabyly cause the fewest butterflies.

 

[Kvasir]

Primarily to punish Prussia when Prussia turned against their former ally France. Secondarily, to have a puppet state in Poland supporting him, of course.

So, yes, if Prussia just had stayed on Nappys side - but of course, that would have even more far-reaching consequences, as then Nappy wouldnt be defeated. Except I guess when Prussia stabs him in the back with a very good timing...

This could work. Didn't Prussia attack France on it's own first? Lets say they waited and then all the allies declare war at the same time? A victory isn't necessary, but instead a tie where Prussia keeps it's parts of Poland. A few more wars later, France falls, the victors take some territory and the 19th century begins in ernest.

 

[Thande]

Which is odd seeing how Russia was to receive East Prussia in that scenario

I think the Russians disliked the idea of there being an independent Poland (which Warsaw was in all but name, of course) more than they liked the idea of receiving East Prussia.

 

[Valdemar II]

I tried to make a map which would show the situation with a split Poland and a Northrhine-Westphalen under the Wettins.

 

[stevep]

I tried to make a map which would show the situation with a split Poland and a Northrhine-Westphalen under the Wettins.

Valdemar II

Any reason why the Netherlands gets the southern Rhineland as well as what's now Belgium? Presume it makes sense in terms of not having Saxony too big if its being punished. Does rather make the Netherlands the sole immediate defender of the Rhine region against any French expansion. Which could leave them a bit exposed to some good diplomacy by the French.

Otherwise looks good. Rather what I was thinking of although didn't realise how big and how far east Prussia would reach. Thanks.

Steve

 

[htgriffin]

Oh, relationships between the three powers should even be better this way, as they certainly will cooperate to prevent Polish uprisings. Though, OTOH not enough to reconcile Prussia and Austria, who inevitably will clash over at leats influence in Germany...

...heh. Assuming, of course, Prussia stays a Great Power. Prussia keeping all its parts of Poland means it doesnt need to be compensated, with the Rhineland. Who gets the Rhineland is anybodys guess, but at least most if not all of the Ruhr Area (depending on Westphalia...) would ITTL not be Prussian. Sure, Prussia still has the Ruhr's smaller brother, Upper Silesia, but still, comparedto IOTL Prussia will hence ironically be less powerful once teh Industrial Revolution kicks in.

Hmm... might the Prussians be more Polonized than the Poles Germanized in this case? All the major cities and industral areas are in the Slavic sector, and a Kulturkampf would be harder here.

HTG

 

[Valdemar II]

Hmm... might the Prussians be more Polonized than the Poles Germanized in this case? All the major cities and industral areas are in the Slavic sector, and a Kulturkampf would be harder here.

HTG

No, and all the major cities and industral areas is in German area and has German majority.

Prussia would be something like 2/3 German (and protestant).

 

[Kvasir]

Hmm... might the Prussians be more Polonized than the Poles Germanized in this case? All the major cities and industral areas are in the Slavic sector, and a Kulturkampf would be harder here.

HTG

Definitely not. I can't imagine this happening without some radical changes. The Jews speak Yiddish, and Germans will probably move there in numbers. Also improved education will favour German. I believe that Bilingualism will be very common in the cities. Wouldn't the polish solders use German too? If Prussia take the lead as the unifier of Germany like OTL this becomes even more unlikely. Also I'm pretty sure most of the industry is in the German sectors, though any evidence to the contrary would be interesting to read.

 

[Susano]

Any reason why the Netherlands gets the southern Rhineland as well as what's now Belgium?

Yeah, the Nl were already extremly lucky gaining the Southern Netherlands as is. They wouldnt get any part of the Rhineland.

Hmm... might the Prussians be more Polonized than the Poles Germanized in this case? All the major cities and industral areas are in the Slavic sector, and a Kulturkampf would be harder here.

There wouldnt be any -ification, most likely, why would there be?

 

[Kvasir]

OK, so Prussia plays its cards right and manages to get through the Napoleonic Wars maintaining the 3rd Partition boarders. First question, without the defeat of the OTL would the serfs be emancipated? Then the question becomes what territory Prussia gains. Lets say that Prussia gains all of Saxony. Without the Rhineland would Prussia be as influential in the german confederation? What would Prussia do from then till 1848? Would events progress to the 1848 revolutions as OTL? What butterflies could have happened?

Have I missed any questions? Have you guys got any answers?

 

[Analytical Engine]

Could we end up with Uber-Germany?