WI German navy destroys British navy in Jutland.

I thought the same, RodentRevolution; German destroyers and torpedoboats sneaking to the flank of British heavy ships without being spotted seems unprobable. That is why I wanted to use submarines. However, I am not looking for probable, I am looking for possible. Miracles do happen. And a miracle is what the Germans need to break the blockade. Would it be possible to submarines position themselves between the initial battle and British main fleet, and cause heavy damage that way? And/or for the German torpedo boats to sneak around and launch torpedo salvo unseen to the British heavy ships?
 
I thought the same, RodentRevolution; German destroyers and torpedoboats sneaking to the flank of British heavy ships without being spotted seems unprobable. That is why I wanted to use submarines. However, I am not looking for probable, I am looking for possible. Miracles do happen. And a miracle is what the Germans need to break the blockade. Would it be possible to submarines position themselves between the initial battle and British main fleet, and cause heavy damage that way? And/or for the German torpedo boats to sneak around and launch torpedo salvo unseen to the British heavy ships?


Well unspotted was not the problem, British destroyers were frequently not spotted during the night action by the Germans until in at least in one case they literally bumped into a battleship, the problem was they did not do terribly well on the spotting stakes either. They did however sink a little old lady battleship the Pommern. Basically while the German heavy forces ran up some cheap hits, three battlecruisers and three armoured cruisers for only the one battlecruiser of their own before running away once the British battleships began to outpoint them the British light forces easily came out on top versus the German light units.

During the daylight the odds of the light forces on either side achieving all that much were even lower. The other side could see them a long way off and take appropriate measures as you point out.

I don't think it is impossible for the HSF to perhaps have inflicted a real check on the Grand Fleet earlier (see the thread linked) but Jutland is actually unlikely to have been the two days when it would have happened.

BTW I happily answer to Rodent and/or RR to save on typing time :D
 
Okay, so German light forces could do something more but not a miracle. What about Germans mining and stationing submarines somewhere between the battle area and Grand Fleet? I am aware that this requires superb co-ordination, communication and a fair dose of luck to succeed in right time and place, but is it possible at all?
 

JAG88

Banned
It was a foggy night though to be fair that did not stop the British light forces discovering the Germans, the German destroyers on the other hand completely failed to detach from their own main body which does not bode well for the success of their torpedo attack. Further assuming they had not simply gotten lost in the North Sea which is a strong possibility given the prevailing conditions they would then have found actually spotting ships in the dark and mist let alone launching a successful torpedo attack on them was rather hard as the British were demonstrating back in OTL.

So basically the German light forces have to do not merely a lot better than they did OTL but a lot, lot better and then to have any meaningful impact on the RN have to do a lot, lot better than the British light forces who actually did do a lot, lot better than the Germans in OTL.

Colour me sceptical.

Why do people never even bother checking before making unsubstantiated statements?

From Campbell:

"The German destroyer flotillas were to carry out night attacks, but fortunately for the British the position of their battlefleet was not known, so that the flotillas had to be spread between 55° and 190°. There were defects in the plan adopted, and no success was obtained. Scheer had told Commodore Heinrich in the Regensburg as early as 1916 that his three flotillas were to attack during the night, and at 2000 both Heinrich and the Senior Leader of Destroyers, Commodore Michelsen, in the Rostock, were ordered by Scheer to direct all flotillas to attack.

Heinrich had available the ten destroyers of the 2nd Flotilla which had only fired one torpedo with two damaged, so that they had 57 left, and three destroyers of the 12th Half-Flotilla with 15 torpedoes. In order to obtain a view, less obscured by haze and smoke, the Regensburg turned back with these destroyers at c2010 and made for a position northward of the German rear, and not far from where the Indefatigable had sunk, wreckage being noted by the B9 7 and G103. The 2nd Flotilla were to attack in the sector 55° to 100° and, if it appeared inadvisable to return via the German Bight, were to make for Kiel round the Skaw. The next sector, 100° to 122°, was allotted to the 12th Half-Flotilla.

Just after the destroyers had been given their orders, and 14 minutes before they were finally detached at 2030, a signal was received from Scheer, that the Rostock was to conduct all attacks. Heinrich had foreseen this, and had therefore confined his flotillas to the tactically less favourable northern sectors to avoid obstructing Michelsen. This meant that the most promising sectors would be given to the coal-fired destroyers of the 5th and 7th Flotillas. Heinrich notified Scheer and Michelsen of the orders issued, and Michelsen then informed Scheer that Heinrich would direct the attacks of his flotillas independently.

...

Michelsen thought that the British would probably steam southward under the Jutland coast during the night and assigned the sector 122° to 156° to the 7th Flotilla, and 156° to 190° to the 5th. Owing to Michelsen's and Heinrich's flotillas being detached from different positions, there was however a gap between the 122° boundaries of the sectors of the 12th Half-Flotilla and 7th Flotilla. The 5th Flotilla proceeded generally 173° after they were detached, and should have begun to search their sector at 2230, but they were delayed 30 minutes by having to pass twice through the German line, and also by smoke interfering with visual signals. The 7th Flotilla which were steering 139° passed through the line of the 3rd Squadron at about 2125, and 3 minutes or so later the S23 was briefly lit up by SL and fired at. Recognition signals stopped further firing, and the 7th Flotilla altered course to 122° to get further away from the German Fleet, and proceeded in close order at 17kts.

There were thus no German destroyers in the sector between 122° and 173°, where the British battleships were to be found."
This was due to the HSF not knowing where the GF was, have them know and you can have several, not all, of their flotillas find them and attack at night... then you will have your disaster. Just go and read page three of this same thread, you will get the idea.

Regarding RN DDs, they were a disaster an utter failure, they had the whole HSF SAIL THROUGH THEM AND FAILED TO HIT, just a pre-dread got a hit and sank, the rest were swept away by the BBs themselves which sank several RN DDs. They simply went over them like a hot knife through butter.

This is what the Germans thought of the Rn DD attacks:

"The 4th Flotilla was now completely dispersed, largely due to the Westfalen whose firing had been conducted with great skill although she was not fitted with Director-pointer equipment. The Germans had employed searchlights most effectively in combination with their guns, though on one occasion a light cruiser to starboard accidentally lit up her own line, and only a very limited use had been made of star shells. Grand Fleet Battle Orders emphasised that the primary duty of British destroyers was to engage enemy destroyers with gunfire, and though great bravery and dash were shown by the 4th Flotilla, both Captain Redlich of the Westfalen, and Commodore Michelsen considered that there was also a great lack of training in torpedo attack. The destroyers came in separately and fired their torpedoes while still closing, always approaching too near, while the German turns-away resulted in the torpedoes passing at very acute angles of intersection, and of the 17 fired, only one hit. No attacks from ahead were noticed by Michelsen. Several torpedoes were observed to have come to the surface near the Rostock after running only about 1600yds, and this indicates that they had been fired cold to reduce the initial dive. Although the sky was fully overcast and visibility low, the night was not completely dark, and according to the Rheinland, the British destroyers were badly blacked-out."

The Germans on the other hand trained for night engagements and their "DDs" were not such, they were "high seas torpedo boats", and obviously their primary mission was to use their TTs to sink enemy BBs which is why they usually had more TTs than the RN DDs, even better if its at night.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Okay, so German light forces could do something more but not a miracle. What about Germans mining and stationing submarines somewhere between the battle area and Grand Fleet? I am aware that this requires superb co-ordination, communication and a fair dose of luck to succeed in right time and place, but is it possible at all?

My first inclination is that it is not actually physically impossible.
That's about all it has going for it... Jutland was something of a meeting engagement, that kind of prepared battlefield would imply the Germans knew where their enemy were going to go before the Grand Fleet itself did!
 
Okay, so German light forces could do something more but not a miracle. What about Germans mining and stationing submarines somewhere between the battle area and Grand Fleet? I am aware that this requires superb co-ordination, communication and a fair dose of luck to succeed in right time and place, but is it possible at all?

The Germans did not even know for sure where they were going to meet the British Battlecruiser Force let alone where the Grand Fleet would be at the time they did so. They were in fact hoping the Grand Fleet might stay away.
 
Why do people never even bother checking before making unsubstantiated statements?

From Campbell:



"The German destroyer flotillas were to carry out night attacks, but fortunately for the British the position of their battlefleet was not known, so that the flotillas had to be spread between 55° and 190°. There were defects in the plan adopted, and no success was obtained. Scheer had told Commodore Heinrich in the Regensburg as early as 1916 that his three flotillas were to attack during the night, and at 2000 both Heinrich and the Senior Leader of Destroyers, Commodore Michelsen, in the Rostock, were ordered by Scheer to direct all flotillas to attack.

Heinrich had available the ten destroyers of the 2nd Flotilla which had only fired one torpedo with two damaged, so that they had 57 left, and three destroyers of the 12th Half-Flotilla with 15 torpedoes. In order to obtain a view, less obscured by haze and smoke, the Regensburg turned back with these destroyers at c2010 and made for a position northward of the German rear, and not far from where the Indefatigable had sunk, wreckage being noted by the B9 7 and G103. The 2nd Flotilla were to attack in the sector 55° to 100° and, if it appeared inadvisable to return via the German Bight, were to make for Kiel round the Skaw. The next sector, 100° to 122°, was allotted to the 12th Half-Flotilla.

Just after the destroyers had been given their orders, and 14 minutes before they were finally detached at 2030, a signal was received from Scheer, that the Rostock was to conduct all attacks. Heinrich had foreseen this, and had therefore confined his flotillas to the tactically less favourable northern sectors to avoid obstructing Michelsen. This meant that the most promising sectors would be given to the coal-fired destroyers of the 5th and 7th Flotillas. Heinrich notified Scheer and Michelsen of the orders issued, and Michelsen then informed Scheer that Heinrich would direct the attacks of his flotillas independently.

...

Michelsen thought that the British would probably steam southward under the Jutland coast during the night and assigned the sector 122° to 156° to the 7th Flotilla, and 156° to 190° to the 5th. Owing to Michelsen's and Heinrich's flotillas being detached from different positions, there was however a gap between the 122° boundaries of the sectors of the 12th Half-Flotilla and 7th Flotilla. The 5th Flotilla proceeded generally 173° after they were detached, and should have begun to search their sector at 2230, but they were delayed 30 minutes by having to pass twice through the German line, and also by smoke interfering with visual signals. The 7th Flotilla which were steering 139° passed through the line of the 3rd Squadron at about 2125, and 3 minutes or so later the S23 was briefly lit up by SL and fired at. Recognition signals stopped further firing, and the 7th Flotilla altered course to 122° to get further away from the German Fleet, and proceeded in close order at 17kts.

There were thus no German destroyers in the sector between 122° and 173°, where the British battleships were to be found."


This was due to the HSF not knowing where the GF was, have them know and you can have several, not all, of their flotillas find them and attack at night... then you will have your disaster. Just go and read page three of this same thread, you will get the idea.

Regarding RN DDs, they were a disaster an utter failure, they had the whole HSF SAIL THROUGH THEM AND FAILED TO HIT, just a pre-dread got a hit and sank, the rest were swept away by the BBs themselves which sank several RN DDs. They simply went over them like a hot knife through butter.

I am going to preserve this as it will occur to you at some point that you have merely confirmed that you know my statement to be based on the facts. The German efforts to detach their destroyer were a shambolic mess. The British light forces on the other hand found the German main body but were unable to conduct a successful night attack due to limitations of the technology of the time which was reliant on the human eyeball, a device notably not optimised for use either at night or on the high seas.

The British however did sink the Pommern, not a vital loss no but an immeasurably greater achievement than any scored by the German light forces.
 

JAG88

Banned
Okay, so German light forces could do something more but not a miracle. What about Germans mining and stationing submarines somewhere between the battle area and Grand Fleet? I am aware that this requires superb co-ordination, communication and a fair dose of luck to succeed in right time and place, but is it possible at all?

The only use for the Uboats was the one given, lurk near the RN bases and engage them as they leave/return, but most of them missed the signal to begin operations and missed the ships departing.

Later in August Scheer did setup a couple Uboat lines in order to drag the GF through them, he bagged 2 RN CLs in three separate attacks.

After that the RN decided it was too risky and vowed not to leave port unless the HSF came close enough Scapa to guarantee an engagement.
 

JAG88

Banned
I am going to preserve this as it will occur to you at some point that you have merely confirmed that you know my statement to be based on the facts. The German efforts to detach their destroyer were a shambolic mess. The British light forces on the other hand found the German main body but were unable to conduct a successful night attack due to limitations of the technology of the time which was reliant on the human eyeball, a device notably not optimised for use either at night or on the high seas.

The British however did sink the Pommern, not a vital loss no but an immeasurably greater achievement than any scored by the German light forces.

I see that you have a problem recognizing facts... You claimed:

Originally Posted by RodentRevolution
It was a foggy night though to be fair that did not stop the British light forces discovering the Germans, the German destroyers on the other hand completely failed to detach from their own main body which does not bode well for the success of their torpedo attack. Further assuming they had not simply gotten lost in the North Sea which is a strong possibility given the prevailing conditions they would then have found actually spotting ships in the dark and mist let alone launching a successful torpedo attack on them was rather hard as the British were demonstrating back in OTL.
Which I have just proved wrong since the HSF DDs were detached, and yet you claim to be right! :D

Now you have another utterly hilarious claim:

"The British light forces on the other hand found the German main body but were unable to conduct a successful night attack due to limitations of the technology of the time which was reliant on the human eyeball, a device notably not optimised for use either at night or on the high seas."
The RN DDs werent detached, they were sent to the back of the RN formation in order to prevent friendly fire incidents, there is where the HSF found them and rolled over them, there was no search effort, they were a passive element in this engagement until the HSF showed up!

In this map you will see the approximate fleet dispositions:

DDattackonRNnightformation_zpsb7ee3762.jpg


Please, if you have no clue of what you are talking about just refrain from misleading the people who is trying to learn and test their theories.
 
If I have understood this correctly...

The most plausible change for decisive German victory would be torpedo strikes in the cover of the night? That would work, especially if the German main force would instead of retreating immediately fake it or something. Only thing I am wondering about is that how many of those ships would be able to spot British battleships without getting spotted themselves. I pointed out earlier the information advantage Germans have because of the Zeppelins, but I don't think they can still see in the dark reliably. Also, about the U-boats: Were they fast enough to follow the British ships at least somewhat and close in while the British are in battle? Or to follow them and set a trap immediately/soon after the battle (if they retreat using straightest route)? Or are they useless after the fleet has gone past them?
 

JAG88

Banned
The most plausible change for decisive German victory would be torpedo strikes in the cover of the night? That would work, especially if the German main force would instead of retreating immediately fake it or something. Only thing I am wondering about is that how many of those ships would be able to spot British battleships without getting spotted themselves. I pointed out earlier the information advantage Germans have because of the Zeppelins, but I don't think they can still see in the dark reliably. Also, about the U-boats: Were they fast enough to follow the British ships at least somewhat and close in while the British are in battle? Or to follow them and set a trap immediately/soon after the battle (if they retreat using straightest route)? Or are they useless after the fleet has gone past them?

http://uboat.net/wwi/types/

The best you could expect from them was 17 knots from the big oceanic types, expect that to be reduced by the weather.

All HSF DDs and CLs could carry mines, it was the reason why Jellicoe never sailed directly through the waters traveled by the HSF, although none were carrier at Jutland. During the Russo-Japanese war the IJN dropped mines ahead of the Russian Fleet and sank 1 or 2 BBs IIRC so the RN was weary of that.

A DD is far smaller and harder to see than a big-ass BB, the DD will always spot first and IIRC German DD tactics required launch to take advantage of the surprise element since a nice straight-steaming unaware ship is a far better target than an alert maneuvering one. Coal fired DDs for example had to limit their speeds at night in order to be appropriately "blacked out" for an attack.

Zeppelins would be restricted by the awful North Sea weather, and at night they were pretty useless.
 

JAG88

Banned
And remember that the night cruising formation for the GF were three parallel lines one mile apart, so once the first torpedoes hit the first line the second line would have a merry time dodging the torpedoes that missed PLUS the surviving ships of the first line charging at them a fast as they could trying to avoid the torpedoes!

... only to, also, run into the third BB line! :D
 
And remember that the night cruising formation for the GF were three parallel lines one mile apart, so once the first torpedoes hit the first line the second line would have a merry time dodging the torpedoes that missed PLUS the surviving ships of the first line charging at them a fast as they could trying to avoid the torpedoes!

... only to, also, run into the third BB line! :D


Again you are proving you understand nothing about what you are talking about. A mile apart mean 1600 metres, that is a lot of room to dodge but in most cases the RN ships won't have to as if they are in neat ranks then once you have missed one ahead you have missed the other two behind. However this is unlikely as there was considerable gaps between ships in line so most of the formation you are aiming at is empty space, not a lot of hits there.

Of course this assumes that the German destroyers find the first file nearest them without sailing entirely through the entire GF without spotting a thing. Hell as the above proves the German light forces cannot even find their assigned patrol sectors reliably :D They seem to struggle, I am going to be mean and say fail OTL to actually detach from the main fleet. Yet even with the support of the battleships in all their actions they still end the day down four light cruisers and five destroyers to eight destroyers, they are just lucky the only battleship the Brits got was an old one.

Now of course part of the argument for the Germans doing better is completely ASB as it relies on them having better eyes for seeing at night because they have to be able to find the battleships and get past their supporting light units which is something the Royal Navy light forces proved is rather difficult although in the case of the Royal Navy they managed part of it but found the final execution part of it was rather tricky.

So recall the argument for German torpedo success rests on the Germans being more competent than the British when in fact they rather demonstrated the opposite.
 

JAG88

Banned
Well unspotted was not the problem, British destroyers were frequently not spotted during the night action by the Germans until in at least in one case they literally bumped into a battleship...

You are so funny, Nassau saw Spitfire up close and turned in to ram, when Spitfire spotted the ram attempt managed to turn in and present its bow but still got hit, add to that the effect of the 28cm guns firing at maximum depression and that left Spitfire in a sorry state and barely afloat.

The reason why Spitfire got so close is that the German BBs were busy raping Tipperary ahead of Spitfire... that gave it a chance to launch torpedoes at range of less than a 1.000y and missed!

Talk about failure.
 
Talk about failure.

That should be the Hocheseeflotte Law: Any discussion of the HSF will ultimately end up being about failure.

That may be rather cruel to brave men who for the most part served in that force but it does accurately reflect the qualities or rather absence of qualities of the leadership from Tirpitz on down who conceived a project so far beyond Imperial Germany's capabilities and at odds with its geo-political realities and then forced others to die for their ambitious pride.
 

JAG88

Banned
Again you are proving you understand nothing about what you are talking about. A mile apart mean 1600 metres, that is a lot of room to dodge but in most cases the RN ships won't have to as if they are in neat ranks then once you have missed one ahead you have missed the other two behind. However this is unlikely as there was considerable gaps between ships in line so most of the formation you are aiming at is empty space, not a lot of hits there.

You are so, so funny!

Yes, a mile apart, and since they can not count on all torpedoes being fired at once or on further attacks by other German DDs they still have to take evasive action unless they are complete retards. During WW1 TT spreads were the exception, not the rule.

You have no clue of what you are talking about, the DDs AIMED their torpedoes, they didnt spray and pray, they would select a target and AIM at it and launch 1 or more torpedoes. Man, your need to make stuff up is so amusing!

Of course this assumes that the German destroyers find the first file nearest them without sailing entirely through the entire GF without spotting a thing. Hell as the above proves the German light forces cannot even find their assigned patrol sectors reliably :D They seem to struggle, I am going to be mean and say fail OTL to actually detach from the main fleet. Yet even with the support of the battleships in all their actions they still end the day down four light cruisers and five destroyers to eight destroyers, they are just lucky the only battleship the Brits got was an old one.
Aw man, you are really giving a sorry show here...

Now you pretend that a DD would sail through the GF without spotting anything? Ships were spotted around 3.000y that night, you have to be REALLY desperate to claim something that dumb.

Heh, ONE of the flotillas had trouble since it had to cross the battleline TWICE, something the RN was weary of doing during the day.

No, the Germans werent lucky, the RN simply was incompetent at night which is why Jellicoe wanted to avoid a night fight and remained aloof when he heard and saw the signs of fighting at his rear.

Now of course part of the argument for the Germans doing better is completely ASB as it relies on them having better eyes for seeing at night because they have to be able to find the battleships and get past their supporting light units which is something the Royal Navy light forces proved is rather difficult although in the case of the Royal Navy they managed part of it but found the final execution part of it was rather tricky.
No man, its not better eyes, it called doctrine and training, the Japanese would do it later as well to the surprise of many that, again, neglected night fighting.

And yet you fail to grasp the fact that RN lights were at the back, not protecting the sides of the BBs... You, literally, couldnt find the RN lights with a map! Just how clueless are you? :D

So recall the argument for German torpedo success rests on the Germans being more competent than the British when in fact they rather demonstrated the opposite.
Oh, they proved they were better at night, from recognition signals to maneuvering as a unit, to searchlight control and starshells the RN could not compete... which is why Jellicoe chose not to.
 

JAG88

Banned
That should be the Hocheseeflotte Law: Any discussion of the HSF will ultimately end up being about failure.

That may be rather cruel to brave men who for the most part served in that force but it does accurately reflect the qualities or rather absence of qualities of the leadership from Tirpitz on down who conceived a project so far beyond Imperial Germany's capabilities and at odds with its geo-political realities and then forced others to die for their ambitious pride.

Awww... did I touch a nerve? :D

Go read some books about the battle, then comeback and post, all you are doing is exposing your own ignorance.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Awww... did I touch a nerve? :D

Go read some books about the battle, then comeback and post, all you are doing is exposing your own ignorance.

You just love to try yo get under people's skin with passive aggressive insults don't you? In addition to one formal warning to watch it, there have been several other threads where a general caution has been necessary mainly due to your snide comments and sniping.

That method of interaction may be perfectly acceptable some places. It does NOT fly here.

Kicked for a week.

Be civil upon your return.
 
Well this escalated quickly

And I still don't have one definite answer: Would German flotillas be able, with some luck involved, to cause heavy/considerable damage to British Battleships and BCs? And how heavy damage, while still being able to retreat with light/no losses? Also would the amount of information gained from U-boats and Zeppelins be enough for Scheer to surprise Jellicoe instead of other way around? Someone suggested somewhere that Scheer could strike before Jellicoe has organized a battle line, and turn away fast. This would still mean British fleet trying to follow the German fleet. And how heavy losses would this cause to the British? Let's assume that if the surprise succeeds, Scheer will cross Jellicoes T twice quickly and then retreat with using torpedo salvo to prevent British closing in.
 
And I still don't have one definite answer: Would German flotillas be able, with some luck involved, to cause heavy/considerable damage to British Battleships and BCs? And how heavy damage, while still being able to retreat with light/no losses? Also would the amount of information gained from U-boats and Zeppelins be enough for Scheer to surprise Jellicoe instead of other way around? Someone suggested somewhere that Scheer could strike before Jellicoe has organized a battle line, and turn away fast. This would still mean British fleet trying to follow the German fleet. And how heavy losses would this cause to the British? Let's assume that if the surprise succeeds, Scheer will cross Jellicoes T twice quickly and then retreat with using torpedo salvo to prevent British closing in.

The issue is that the GF knows where the HSF is because it tried to Trap Beatty's Battle Cruiser force and if Scheer knows the Grand Fleet is bearing down on him - he is turning about and running back to Wilhelmshaven.

So all that would be achieved here is the battle being broken off much earlier and Sheer attempting to withdraw without making contact with the Home Fleet.

He is not about to deliberately get his fleet involved in a disadvantageous fight vs a peer opponent, that wasn't what he had left Germany to do.

IMO had Sheer done as you suggested then yes the potential existed for more losses to be inflicted on the Royal Navy but their was an even greater possibility of much greater losses being inflicted on the German Navy who were far less able to absorb such losses.
 
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