WI German-Japanese Alliance instead of Anglo-Japanese Alliance

So I've been thinking lately about this topic and I'd like your input. As we all know, the Anglo-Japanese Alliance was a diplomatic milestone that ended Britain's Splendid Isolation. The reason is that both signatories felt threatened by Russian expansionism in the Far East. Eventually the alliance was dissolved in 1923 due to divergent interests between Japan and the British Empire. Canada wanted out and the British prioritized good relations with the United States over the alliance with Japan, among other things.

Japan's concerns about Russia are arguably better addressed by an alliance with Germany. Germany directly borders Russia and can attack its vital western parts, where most of the industrial centres, major cities, railway hubs and sources of coal and steel are. Britain, on the other hand, at no point borders any vital part of Russia.

That leaves the concerns of Germany, which supported Russia during the Triple Intervention in 1895 for the following reasons: firstly, its desire to draw Russia's attention to the east and away from itself and secondly, to enlist Russia's support in establishing German territorial concessions in China. Germany hoped that support for Russia would encourage Russia, in turn, to support Germany's colonial ambitions, which were especially vexed since Germany had only recently formed itself into a unified nation and had arrived late in the colonial "game."

The Triple Intervention made Japan feel humiliated and cheated out of their spoils of war (the Sino-Japanese War). Germany's interested, as listed above, could be achieved without Russia and supporting Russia made little sense in hindsight anyway since it didn't break Russia's commitment to the Dual Entente with Germany's revanchist rival France. All we need is the Kaiser to get over his Yellow Peril stance for a minute.

Let's suppose that Germany doesn't participate in the Triple Intervention in 1895 and instead actively supports Japan in the matter, ultimately resulting in a German-Japanese Alliance in the late 1890s/early 1900s. What effect would such an alliance have on the alliance system. Assuming a WW I analogue still occurs, what would be the effect of Japan fighting on the side of the Central Powers?
 

Grimbald

Monthly Donor
It certainly changes the balance of power in the Pacific. Taking the German colonies without cost is more of a problem and Russia will have to divert much needed troops to the east thus accelerating German successes on the Eastern Front. France would have to worry about Indo China although they might give up on it rather than weaken their lines in Europe.

Germany was within a nit of winning the war anyway. I think this is enough to push them over.

Result:

Germany gets a B-L victory in the east, picks up slightly more of the French coal deposits and some of French Africa.

Belgium sells its African colonies to Germany and rebuilds using those funds.

Austria-Hungary falls apart; this was going to happen no matter what. German Austria joins the German Empire.

Japan gets French Indo China and a few French islands in the western Pacific.

France is forced to pay reparations to Belgium. (Because Germany makes them) and loses most of its colonies

The UK gets a white peace.

The US makes a lot of $$$ and everyone gears up for round two.
 
It certainly changes the balance of power in the Pacific. Taking the German colonies without cost is more of a problem and Russia will have to divert much needed troops to the east thus accelerating German successes on the Eastern Front. France would have to worry about Indo China although they might give up on it rather than weaken their lines in Europe.
Japan was depend on British finances and European markets which would be cut off in the event of War, Japanese navy isn't as powerfully as it was in world war 2 and lacks bases in the South East Asia.
 
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Austria-Hungary falls apart; this was going to happen no matter what. German Austria joins the German Empire.

The inevitability of A-H's collapse is highly exaggerated. If Russia is forced to divert troops east to the point that the Central Powers win there more easily, then A-H will be more stable.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
If Japan invests in Shantung then it can begin to overcome its coal dependency. Germany only has Tsingtao/Kiaochau but in return for supporting Japan over Port Arthur, Japan might back Germany making more of its sphere in Shantung and actually exercising political dominance there.

Japan was already moving towards building its own top class warships but in this instance there may be a dangerous hiatus between the British built ones and the home built ones, That said, the Tsukuba was built in Japan, and while we might ignore that ship today it was a powerful unit of its time. Again the Aki and Satsuma were Japanese built, so it can be seen that they had by this period mastered the types of ship that already existed. Dreadnoughts would be more problematic and probably delayed unless ordered in German yards
 
It certainly changes the balance of power in the Pacific. Taking the German colonies without cost is more of a problem and Russia will have to divert much needed troops to the east thus accelerating German successes on the Eastern Front. France would have to worry about Indo China although they might give up on it rather than weaken their lines in Europe.

Germany was within a nit of winning the war anyway. I think this is enough to push them over.

Result:

Germany gets a B-L victory in the east, picks up slightly more of the French coal deposits and some of French Africa.

Belgium sells its African colonies to Germany and rebuilds using those funds.

Austria-Hungary falls apart; this was going to happen no matter what. German Austria joins the German Empire.

Japan gets French Indo China and a few French islands in the western Pacific.

France is forced to pay reparations to Belgium. (Because Germany makes them) and loses most of its colonies

The UK gets a white peace.

The US makes a lot of $$$ and everyone gears up for round two.

Interesting you should mention the US. Wouldn't they be worried about Japanese expansionism in an alt- WW I and be even more inclined to join the Entente?

How much Russian land would Japan take in such a WWI? The rest of Sakhalin is probably a given, but would it also grab the Transamur region?

Sakhalin is a given. Transamur would make Japan look big on the map, but wasn't it considered to be a frozen wasteland at this point?
 
Sakhalin is a given. Transamur would make Japan look big on the map, but wasn't it considered to be a frozen wasteland at this point?
Vladivostok is a great harbour, it keeps Russia out of the Pacific, it's easy to defend because the Amur is a big river, it lets you keep an eye on China and there's some mineral wealth there too along with timber, etc.
 
With Germany allied to Japan the Russians won’t be nearly as aggressive in Korea, due to the probability of war with Germany should they fight Japan. The Russo-Japanese War won’t happen, and Russia will end up keeping their effective control of Manchuria. That means the Trans-Siberian Railroad is likely finished before hostilities break out.

The eventual impact on the war in Europe will be, frankly, minimal. France and Russia aren’t going to throw their homelands away to save colonies they can get back in the final peace anyway. Japan wasn’t important enough in WWI to change the outcome of the war.
 
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With Germany allied to Japan the Russians won’t be nearly as aggressive in Korea, due to the probability of war with Germany should they fight Japan. The Russo-Japanese War won’t happen, and Russia will end up keeping their effective control of Manchuria. That means the Trans-Siberian Railroad is likely finished before hostilities break out.

The eventual impact on the war in Europe will be, frankly, minimal. France and Russia aren’t going to throw their homelands away to save colonies they can get back in the final peace anyway. Japan wasn’t important enough in WWI to change the outcome of the war.


Transsib might make the Russians even weaker, actually. They'd need to divert some people to at least cut the Japanese off from it, otherwise they might be able to just push through and ruin their influence in China.
 
With Germany allied to Japan the Russians won’t be nearly as aggressive in Korea, due to the probability of war with Germany should they fight Japan. The Russo-Japanese War won’t happen, and Russia will end up keeping their effective control of Manchuria. That means the Trans-Siberian Railroad is likely finished before hostilities break out.

Wouldn't the flipside of that coin be that Japan would be significantly more aggressive? With Germany as their ally they can afford to, and are likely to feel encouraged by a timid Russian attitude. Though details may differ, I could still see the Russo-Japanese War happening. What could also be important is the nature of this German-Japanese Alliance: the historical Anglo-Japanese Alliance would only activate if either signatory was attacked by more than one power IIRC (which is why France didn't back Russia IOTL). If the German-Japanese Alliance is the same, then the RJW may play out as it did historically.

The eventual impact on the war in Europe will be, frankly, minimal. France and Russia aren’t going to throw their homelands away to save colonies they can get back in the final peace anyway. Japan wasn’t important enough in WWI to change the outcome of the war.

France might not, but Russia is going to have to send some troops to defend Vladivostok since the Japanese won't be giving it back once they've got it IMHO. Moreover, Russia will lose all its influence in China to Japan if they don't stop them.
 
Avoiding the A-J Alliance isn't hard, Lansdowne was negotiating pretty independently of Salisbury. But you're missing the central fact that drew Japan to an alliance with Britain: The City of London.

Japan was hugely financially tied to Britain, exporting to the British Empire was central to its economic policy and access to the greatest source of loans in the world was far superior to what the Germans could offer.
 
I just went and checked my copy of Ian Nish's The Anglo-Japanese Alliance.

It seems that the only party that interested in an alliance with Germany in Asia was Britain; in fact, they strongly suggested making it a Tripartite Alliance. Not only was Japan not interested, neither was Germany.

Holstein, the architect of the Kaiserrreich's diplomacy in this period, wrote in a telegram to the German representative in London that Germany did not want an alliance in the region because it would remove the incentive for Britain to come to terms with Germany elsewhere.
18 April, 1901
Holstein said:
The Anglo-German-Japanese special Eastern Asia agreement that both [the Japanese] and the English desire would be quite against our interests because there would be no inducement for England to join Germany and the Triple Alliance in a general agreement. Until we are so joined, England and Japan must be satisfied with our neutrality.

Importantly, this applies just as well to a purely German-Japan alliance. That would, in fact, be a hostile step to Britain and risked pushing Britain into the arms of France and Russia; the goal was to keep Britain stretched thin enough that it needed an ally, but not be so blatant as to push England into the hostile camp. A German-Japan alliance would break that calculus. If Britain began cooperating with Russia and France earlier, the effects could be catastrophic for Germany's strategy.

In fact, Britain was the only country that wanted a three-sided alliance- the Japanese having been tempted, but deciding that they were unimpressed by vague German promises.

To quote Nish

Ian Nish said:
In the early stages of negotiation when the three-sided alliance proposals of [A German diplomat], [the Japanese] tried to steer towards and alliance between Britain and Japan only but Lansdowne tended to bring Germany into the discussion.

I'm sorry Onkel, but I think this one's a non starter. It overestimates Japanese power and capacity to break with their most important Great Power sponsor and doesn't take into account that Germany simply can't offer Japan what Britain can. This alliance would be great for Berlin, much less so for Tokyo- and frankly in the event of a Great War analogue I think that Japan would look carefully at the prospect of honoring an alliance that would require it to cripple its stock market and launch attacks on three major neighbors, and would promptly decide to pull an Italy. 'The Central Powers are a great alliance guys, it's been a real pleasure, we're wishing you all the best, don't write...'
 
I just went and checked my copy of Ian Nish's The Anglo-Japanese Alliance.

It seems that the only party that interested in an alliance with Germany in Asia was Britain; in fact, they strongly suggested making it a Tripartite Alliance. Not only was Japan not interested, neither was Germany.

Holstein, the architect of the Kaiserrreich's diplomacy in this period, wrote in a telegram to the German representative in London that Germany did not want an alliance in the region because it would remove the incentive for Britain to come to terms with Germany elsewhere.
18 April, 1901


Importantly, this applies just as well to a purely German-Japan alliance. That would, in fact, be a hostile step to Britain and risked pushing Britain into the arms of France and Russia; the goal was to keep Britain stretched thin enough that it needed an ally, but not be so blatant as to push England into the hostile camp. A German-Japan alliance would break that calculus. If Britain began cooperating with Russia and France earlier, the effects could be catastrophic for Germany's strategy.

In fact, Britain was the only country that wanted a three-sided alliance- the Japanese having been tempted, but deciding that they were unimpressed by vague German promises.

To quote Nish



I'm sorry Onkel, but I think this one's a non starter. It overestimates Japanese power and capacity to break with their most important Great Power sponsor and doesn't take into account that Germany simply can't offer Japan what Britain can. This alliance would be great for Berlin, much less so for Tokyo- and frankly in the event of a Great War analogue I think that Japan would look carefully at the prospect of honoring an alliance that would require it to cripple its stock market and launch attacks on three major neighbors, and would promptly decide to pull an Italy. 'The Central Powers are a great alliance guys, it's been a real pleasure, we're wishing you all the best, don't write...'

Too bad, I thought it'd make for an interesting PoD.
 
Wouldn't the flipside of that coin be that Japan would be significantly more aggressive?
Possibly, but Germany would also have to keep the fact that if its backing Japan against Russia in the East then any war it gets into between Japan and Russia will definitely see France get involved. And Austria might well (honestly I think it definitely would) decide to sit out such a conflict, meaning it would be fighting alone in Europe. You might say that this is similar to what happened in WWI, but the important distinction is that Germany doesn't know how things went in that situation, and so wouldn't be keen on such a contest. And of course, this sort of meddling in Asia is also going to get the British eyeing them even more than OTL, meaning that Germany would have to consider the very real possibility that getting the Japanese to declare war on Russia could conceivably end with them fighitng France, Britain, and Russia in Europe with no allies at all.

France might not, but Russia is going to have to send some troops to defend Vladivostok since the Japanese won't be giving it back once they've got it IMHO. Moreover, Russia will lose all its influence in China to Japan if they don't stop them.
But here's the thing, they can. If Germany can be beaten then Russia and France (and possibly Britain given what Germany did OTL) would turn to face a Japan that suddenly found itself quite isolated on the international scene. Handing back Vladivostock in exchange for (for instance) having Japanese annexation of Korea and possibly parts of China recognized would be an excellent deal in such a scenario. Sure it might not play out that way, but beating Germany in Europe would be the primary aim of both Russia and France.
 
A similar concept of a Pre world war alliance between German and Japan is a idea already explored. Some random author at Sufficient Velocity wrote a story about what would happen if Prussia invited Japan to join Zollverein in 1861. Weird things start to happen. Because of Zollverein, the Boshin War never happen leaving both the Shogun and the Emperor still in power.

The alliances form roughly similar to OTL but starts to widely diverge with the central powers relatively remaining the same. The French and British still have colonies in modern au, while the Germans don't since their colonies voted for Statehood instead of Independence for safety.

Not quite relating to the question imposed by you but hope this post is somewhat interesting
 
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