WI: George Washington and Frederick II are killed!!OMGZ!

Appologies for lame thread name and a repeat of my past thread. I'm very impatient- new, and of course it seems I can't edit posts (which is simply what I would've done).

Simple question; seen it a few times on the forum but not the way I want it asked.

WI during the Seven Years War Frederick II was either killed or committed suicide. I understand he had a few close calls during several battles as he lead the front lines (correct me if I'm wrong), and I know that- by 1762, his armies were largely routed and Berlin was occupied by the Russians. I read on wikipedia he contemplated suicide (wiki's not god for information though; might just be speculation). Before this happened however the Mircale of the House of Brandeburg popped up- Elizabeth of Russia died and Peter succeeded the throne. Supposing perhaps Elizabeth of Russia's health lasted out a bit longer (at least for the duration of the year let's say- regardless of the bottom two she lives that extra year) and-
i) Died during the campaign in battle
OR
ii) Committed suicide

How would this have affected the future of Brandeburg, Prussia- and really all of Europe and Germany. Would Prussia have been dismantled, partitioned and Brandeburg left a rump state? Would Peter's ascension to the throne simply have meant those territories lost would be returned to Prussia? Would Britain have intervened more in order to save their possessions in Europe? And of course- what does this spell for the future?

The second WI is in the same war but the colonial theatre. Washington came very close to being shot several times during his campaign. Supposing he did, there were of course two possible outcomes:
i) He dies.
ii) He survives a bulletwound and ends up hardcore veteran.

Supposing he dies- how does this affect the American Independence movement? Will the revolution go on? What happens to the future of the colonies; whasa gonna go on.

Thanks, sorry I know I posted basically the same thread yesterday but lack of responce and me being so impatient and needing some input to fuel my creative furnace has tempted me to try again.
 

Susano

Banned
For Frederick II dieing on the field, read Thandes Look to the Wets. Thande was nice enough to grant him one last charge, with him dieing on a pile of enemy corpses ;)
But the scenario that happened then is quite realistic: For a time, most of Brandenburg was occupied, and if Frederick II dies on the field, then chaos might reign, with no smooth succession. Id say Frederick IIs death means Prussian defeat - the casuality (that si, which causes which) is irrelevant there. With Prussia losing it will get utterly dismantled, probably worse than under Napoleon.

Saxony will gain the Prussian territories in teh west of the HREGN (upon which they held a titular claima nyways - since 15xx, the Saxon rulers were stalyed "Dukes of Saxony, Jülich and Berg", even though they never held the latter two territories. And since the 18th cnetury it was even "Dukes of Saxony, Jülich, Berg, Westphalia and Angria, even though none of the latter foru territories were held! Ehem, Im disgressing). Sweden will gain all of Pommerania. Russia will get "East" Prussia. Austria of course will regain Silesia....

What remains is a broken shell consisting only of Brandenburg, plus maybe the adjunct territories of Magdeburg and Halberstadt. Prussia would be dissoluted, and with no East prussia wouldnt even Prussia or Royal anymore. It would revert to be the Electroate of Brandenburg, and only have its core territory. Thats a major change, of course.
 
Sweet- a response.

Yeah I've looked around and sifted through a few threads and that was the consensus before. With rump Brandenburg how would that affect German unification in the future though? I mean, who'd take charge- would there be any state to oppose Austria, say a future saxony, or is the whole thing doomed to an Austrian-led hegemony.

Also, with Peter's ascension to the throne, would this at all help Brandeburg's position? Is there anyway- in his weird sort of, Prussophile ways he'd manage to graft back a Russian-taken territory or would they have by long then bargained with Lithuiana for one of the western provinces.

That's what I'm most interested in- there's actually a few good threads on this and yeah I did see parts of Thande's- I'll look at it, it definately interests me (looks goooooood :D).
 

Susano

Banned
Ah, well, its the 18th century! You cant just jump to OTL 19th century where Prussia then led Gemran unifcation. Any change in the 18th century will have so many butterfly effect sthat that all will be utterly changed anyways!

Peter I think wouldnt actively give back territory, but he would ally with remnaint Brandenburg. He was a bit retarded in development and naive, so he most likely wouldnt even demand much in that alliance. Though with its territorie staken by Great Powers or at least respectable middle powers, what use is an alliance to Brandenburg? Chances are still small that theyd retake the territory! Though... I guess Sweden would be a common aim for Brandenburg and Russia... and of course, they could still partition Poland... though with a weaker Brandneburg that doesnt control Silesia... I doubt they will gain anything more than West Prussia. Maybe as part of the partition Russia will then hand East Prussia back, but will have a border as far westwards as Warsaw...

(I do think given Polands rotten state its neighboru would at least nibble at it, and once theyve smelt blood might then some decades later go for more - which more or less was the OTL situation)

Hm, well, I dont know what Prussias disappearance will mean in teh short run. I mean, with the Seven Years War the phase of the great wars was more or less over. Except the American Revolutionary Wra, fo course, but Prussia hadnt taken aprt in thata nyways IOTL.., so, ironcially, except for Poland it might not mean much, and the butterlfies effects will be more important...
 
Yeah that's really what I was looking for- what's going to go on in the long-term future. The short-term future I can see, and reading about Peter at the most he seems like he'd be able to bargain a deal to hand them East Prussia. If he lived long enough, perhaps he'd so something absolutely wack like getting Courland or some strip of Memel and handing it to them as well- but regardless, I think the moment Peter does something weird like that like IOTL he'd just get killed and replaced.

It's too bad I can't get anyone else on good old George here. Butterflies with George and Frederick is what I'm aiming for; how it's going to affect the long-term future of Europe and North America (and the world for that matter).
 
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