WI: George Elser's assassination attempt succeeds, Hitler and higher officials killed November 1939?

Achaemenid Rome

POD: Hitler assassinated on the 8th of November, 1939

Assumptions:
  • George Elser's assassination attempt in November 1939 succeeds.
  • Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hess, Robert Ley, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Streicher, August Frank, Hermann Esser, Heinrich Himmler, and Christian Weber are successfully killed.
  • Hermann Goering inherits Germany and becomes supreme leader.
What happens thereafter?
  1. Does the Wehrmacht become the primary governmental force? Does Goering become a puppet of the Wehrmacht, or does he try to maneuver the Luftwaffe into a sort of semi-autonomous entity like the SS, and expand his power that way?
  2. Without Himmler, is the SS taken out of the picture? Or contrarily, with all the high officials dead, do the remaining SS personnel make a powergrab?
  3. Is it still Nazi Germany? Considering that Wehrmacht lower officers committed many atrocities, it seems likely that the "moral outcome" of Nazi Germany isn't much better, even with Hitler et al. eliminated, because the Nazis already infiltrated all parts of society.
  4. Does the invasion of France still happen on schedule?
  5. Does the invasion of Russia still happen? (I will argue that it would, because of the Soviet invasion of Bessarabia and the Baltic States, as well as most of the main supporters of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, except Ribbentrop, being dead. Also, Hitler's generals were mostly just as fooled as he was about the capabilities of the USSR)
  6. Does lack of Hitler prolong the war or shorten the war?
What are your thoughts?
 

Anchises

Banned
Achaemenid Rome said:
POD: Hitler assassinated on the 8th of November, 1939

Assumptions:
  • George Elser's assassination attempt in November 1939 succeeds.
  • Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hess, Robert Ley, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Streicher, August Frank, Hermann Esser, Heinrich Himmler, and Christian Weber are successfully killed.
  • Hermann Goering inherits Germany and becomes supreme leader.
What happens thereafter?
  1. Does the Wehrmacht become the primary governmental force? Does Goering become a puppet of the Wehrmacht, or does he try to maneuver the Luftwaffe into a sort of semi-autonomous entity like the SS, and expand his power that way?
  2. Without Himmler, is the SS taken out of the picture? Or contrarily, with all the high officials dead, do the remaining SS personnel make a powergrab?
  3. Is it still Nazi Germany? Considering that Wehrmacht lower officers committed many atrocities, it seems likely that the "moral outcome" of Nazi Germany isn't much better, even with Hitler et al. eliminated, because the Nazis already infiltrated all parts of society.
  4. Does the invasion of France still happen on schedule?
  5. Does the invasion of Russia still happen? (I will argue that it would, because of the Soviet invasion of Bessarabia and the Baltic States, as well as most of the main supporters of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, except Ribbentrop, being dead. Also, Hitler's generals were mostly just as fooled as he was about the capabilities of the USSR)
  6. Does lack of Hitler prolong the war or shorten the war?
What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

The Economy was well and truly fucked in 1939.

I don't think that Goering would allow the economy to collapse.

There would probably be a massive crackdown on suspicious elements and a later war in 1940.

I still think the Germans would see a similar result in the West but probably more serious attempts to reach a peace with GB.

What happens after is hard to tell. Good material for a TL.
 

Achaemenid Rome

Theoretical_TJ

I think you get even more of a Goering boost than that timeline. I'm pretty convinced by his Nuremberg performance that the allies were absolutely right that he was the most dangerous Nazi.

His drug addled foolishness and flailing around while Hitler was alive strike me as the actions of a man who feels utterly powerless and trapped. Remove the trapping and hand the power to him, and I think you get an extremely dangerous and far more rational dictator.

You likely "just" get a one party dictatorship rather than a totalitarian state, but I think he could have been extremely effective with a deck cleared like that.
 

Achaemenid Rome

Theoretical_TJ said:
I think you get even more of a Goering boost than that timeline. I'm pretty convinced by his Nuremberg performance that the allies were absolutely right that he was the most dangerous Nazi.

His drug addled foolishness and flailing around while Hitler was alive strike me as the actions of a man who feels utterly powerless and trapped. Remove the trapping and hand the power to him, and I think you get an extremely dangerous and far more rational dictator.

You likely "just" get a one party dictatorship rather than a totalitarian state, but I think he could have been extremely effective with a deck cleared like that.
Click to expand...
Interesting theory. What specific incidents from OTL give you this conclusion? And what sort of dictatorial machinations do you think that Goering would manage if he had become supreme leader?
 

Landmass Wave

Would there be suspicion that Goering orchestrated the assassinations so he could take power for himself? It seems a bit too convenient that he survived when the rest of the high command didn't.

And that perception might put a target on his back, between people who think he put his ego above his country and people who are afraid they might be next.
 

Wendell

We see a peace deal struck before the end of 1940 leaving Germany with at minimum the 1914 borders in the East.
 

Carl Schwamberger

Heydrich was well positioned as chief of Reich Security Central Office (“Reichssicherheitshauptamt”) While Goering would have had his own reliable guard Heydrich would have considerable leverage in eliminating rivals, or undercutting their support.
 

Theoretical_TJ

Heydrich was fundamentally pragmatic and would be flexible in his allegiances. He might be purged or be a useful tool to crush the SS from within.

Also re: Goering becoming a "new man" from this is because his drug addiction was almost certainly fed by a sense of despair from having to deal with the sheer chaos of the Reich. Goering wasn't a quivering, useless mess like Hess at Nuremberg, even though he'd spent 15 years as a opium eater. He could crash and burn too but I think he'd be surprisingly effective.
 

Wendell

Heydrich I think could be coopted by Goering and could be slated to succeed him. What's going to be interesting is the cabinet reshuffle. I see Neurath back as foreign minister under Goering.
 

Theoretical_TJ

Wendell said:
Heydrich I think could be coopted by Goering and could be slated to succeed him. What's going to be interesting is the cabinet reshuffle. I see Neurath back as foreign minister under Goering.
Click to expand...

Heydrich is way too ambitious and ruthless to make his successor. Perhaps as part of a Triumvirate with say Speer, that could work well.
 

Achaemenid Rome

Carl Schwamberger said:
This leaves Heydrich, the forgotten nazi, still alive. Wonder how he does under the Goering regime.
Click to expand...
The POD assumes that Heydrich is killed in the fire/debris, he attended the event as well.

Theoretical_TJ said:
Also re: Goering becoming a "new man" from this is because his drug addiction was almost certainly fed by a sense of despair from having to deal with the sheer chaos of the Reich. Goering wasn't a quivering, useless mess like Hess at Nuremberg, even though he'd spent 15 years as a opium eater. He could crash and burn too but I think he'd be surprisingly effective.
Click to expand...
I wonder if Goering would create Luftwaffe field and armored divisions much earlier, expanding the Luftwaffe from an air force into his selective army to gradually overtake the Wehrmacht.
 

jamesownz

Theoretical_TJ said:
I think you get even more of a Goering boost than that timeline. I'm pretty convinced by his Nuremberg performance that the allies were absolutely right that he was the most dangerous Nazi.

His drug addled foolishness and flailing around while Hitler was alive strike me as the actions of a man who feels utterly powerless and trapped. Remove the trapping and hand the power to him, and I think you get an extremely dangerous and far more rational dictator.

You likely "just" get a one party dictatorship rather than a totalitarian state, but I think he could have been extremely effective with a deck cleared like that.
Click to expand...

Dangerous how?

Does the holocaust still happen here?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top