WI: Genoa was not incorporated into Sardinia-Piedmont?

Following the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna, the Republic of Genoa was incorporated into Sardinia-Piedmont. What if it remained independent?
 
How much weaker would Piemont-Sardinia be? Their only continental coast would be Nice, which they'd dearly need to get to Sardinia. Would they be willing to relinquish it to France as in otl?
 
The biggest impact is, by inference, on European politics. What has happened, to change the OTL focus on French containment?

Genoa itself would be poorer on the long term, as it greatly benefitted from being the main port of the industrial North (the so-called Triangolo industriale).

If S-P still unifies Italy, then not much changes. After all, they now have plenty of ports to replace Nizza.
 

gurgu

Banned
The biggest impact is, by inference, on European politics. What has happened, to change the OTL focus on French containment?

Genoa itself would be poorer on the long term, as it greatly benefitted from being the main port of the industrial North (the so-called Triangolo industriale).

If S-P still unifies Italy, then not much changes. After all, they now have plenty of ports to replace Nizza.

Actually genoa had a great decline as power because Spain never paid it's debts toward the republic and was going bankrupt (the american gold wasn't enought anymore), this debt was so huge that the crown gave even panama as payment(until the original city was destroyed by Henry Morgan). When the congress of Wien was held this was one of the main reasons why the republic was shut down sincethe bank itself would not exist anymore and by extension the spanish debt.
A recreated republic would probably have back corsica because the island was taken from the country until genoa did not pay his debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles_(1768)) which at the time was impossible...
Also the republic would istantly search the english alliance for protection by giving better economic deals since Genoa was (and still is)one of the most important ports in the mediterranean sea.
the only difference would be probably the goverment somehow less republic, it was an oligarchy but with some class mobility so maybe just limited to nobility with no chance for the new enriched to join.

About the formation of Italy it would become more difficult without german federation style for the following reasons:
- genoa was friendly toward the pope( historically guelph) so will be allied with it and sardinia-piedmont can't use france since they protect the pope.
- without the city Cavour will have a very hard time improving the economy of the nation and so his nation will remain as more rural then industrialized.
-even if savoy attack alone the republic they won't be able to take the capital, Genoa had 13 km of wall going fro the sea to the many fortress at 300 mt above sea being supplied from sea and with a full garrison, historycally talking savoy never made it to take the city even with the france help when there weren't the Mura Nuove (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Genoa).
-without genoa, there won't be any MILLE expedition(sailed from quarto, near the city), no Garibaldi( he's father was from chiavari and would stay there with a surving republic), no Mazzini( born in genoa) neither nino bixio( garibaldi's vice) and others won't be aviable for an italian formation in help of historical rivals

The only way i can see an italian unification would be creating a swiss like federation or german style, were the the country keep an autonomy level but have a common navy/army.

sry for eventual bad english or grammar i'm writing from the phone...
 
Actually genoa had a great decline as power because Spain never paid it's debts toward the republic and was going bankrupt (the american gold wasn't enought anymore), this debt was so huge that the crown gave even panama as payment(until the original city was destroyed by Henry Morgan). When the congress of Wien was held this was one of the main reasons why the republic was shut down sincethe bank itself would not exist anymore and by extension the spanish debt.
A recreated republic would probably have back corsica because the island was taken from the country until genoa did not pay his debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles_(1768)) which at the time was impossible...
Also the republic would istantly search the english alliance for protection by giving better economic deals since Genoa was (and still is)one of the most important ports in the mediterranean sea.
the only difference would be probably the goverment somehow less republic, it was an oligarchy but with some class mobility so maybe just limited to nobility with no chance for the new enriched to join.

They gave up Corsica because they had no chance of retaking it, like, at all. The UK is not interested in essentially reconquering it for Genoa, either - they would rather try and prop up an independent ruler or outright annex it as they attempted OTL. Nor do they care about Genoese ports on the Med, when they are obtaining plenty of ports of their own (Malta, Gibraltar, the Ionian Islands).
By 1800, the Genoan state was very derelict, it just happened to be incorporated in S-P before most other Italian states did.
 

gurgu

Banned
They gave up Corsica because they had no chance of retaking it, like, at all. The UK is not interested in essentially reconquering it for Genoa, either - they would rather try and prop up an independent ruler or outright annex it as they attempted OTL. Nor do they care about Genoese ports on the Med, when they are obtaining plenty of ports of their own (Malta, Gibraltar, the Ionian Islands).
By 1800, the Genoan state was very derelict, it just happened to be incorporated in S-P before most other Italian states did.
Yeah they gave up corsica but the treaty itself said that if genoese had the money they could take back the island, also in OTL England demanded to sp to decrease and reopen the genoese trade since it was an essential trade node.
BTW, in OTL sp ruined even more genoa just for hate: after taking the region they increase on purpose the trade tariffs just to ruin the economy of the region since piedmont was mainly farmers while Liguria was full of merchants.
When the genoese rebelled in 1848 and tried to retake their freedom Victor Emanuel II send general La Marmora to retake the city, he managed to enter the town only by killing the diplomats sent from the rebellers which demanded more autonomy at least and only after a random English ship decided to bomb the hospital, after breaching in the city under the king request thebtroups slaughtered the male population and children and raped women like never happened since the medieval ages and burned half city( which was later left in that status until Cavour reform), the Savoy family unti today still hasn't apologized for this massacre. After the sad event the ruler congratulated with his general about the mass murder by saying in a letter:" thank you for killing this rotten pigs".
 
Almost all Republics (And all the big ones.) were removed after Vienna, so Genoa as a Republican state (Even if oligarchic.) is very unlikely to survive.
Probably it can become a Duchy, but this opens the problem of a ruler (Bourbon? Unlikely. Hapsburg? Impossible 'cause this would make them too powerful. Savoia? It's basically begging for an annexation.).
I don't think an independent Genoa (And so a more fragmented Northern Italy and a weaker Sardinia) would be possible post Vienna.
It is basically asking for another war between France and Austria or for Austrian domination of Northern Italy.
For the sake of the WI let's say Genoa stays free and gets a local as Duke.
It's an alt-1848: il Re Tentenna invades Genoa taking advantage of the possible riots there. Most of the Republic falls quickly (Few cities resist, but they are forced to surrender later.).
 

gurgu

Banned
Almost all Republics (And all the big ones.) were removed after Vienna, so Genoa as a Republican state (Even if oligarchic.) is very unlikely to survive.
Probably it can become a Duchy, but this opens the problem of a ruler (Bourbon? Unlikely. Hapsburg? Impossible 'cause this would make them too powerful. Savoia? It's basically begging for an annexation.).
I don't think an independent Genoa (And so a more fragmented Northern Italy and a weaker Sardinia) would be possible post Vienna.
It is basically asking for another war between France and Austria or for Austrian domination of Northern Italy.
For the sake of the WI let's say Genoa stays free and gets a local as Duke.
It's an alt-1848: il Re Tentenna invades Genoa taking advantage of the possible riots there. Most of the Republic falls quickly (Few cities resist, but they are forced to surrender later.).

if we keep the wi of genoa with a duke( not impossible, in '500 Andrea D'oria had the chance to become one) it would be a local noble, and to make sure the new duchy is able to be a shield against france it would form a union with corsica( treaty of versailles 1768 decleared null) also the savoiards have never been able to conquer the region alone, as i stated before Genoa had a city wall of 13 km( 20 with the sea walls) and managed to resist to a 35k bersaglieri in 1849 with a small garrison, now imagine a city with a fleet giving supplies and a full garrison.
basically if we make it with the WI, no italian unfication under savoy rule
 
if we keep the wi of genoa with a duke( not impossible, in '500 Andrea D'oria had the chance to become one) it would be a local noble, and to make sure the new duchy is able to be a shield against france it would form a union with corsica( treaty of versailles 1768 decleared null) also the savoiards have never been able to conquer the region alone, as i stated before Genoa had a city wall of 13 km( 20 with the sea walls) and managed to resist to a 35k bersaglieri in 1849 with a small garrison, now imagine a city with a fleet giving supplies and a full garrison.
basically if we make it with the WI, no italian unfication under savoy rule
I'm not very sure about all this Corsica back to Genoa thing: why should anyone want it?
• Corsicans wanted independence.
• Genoa would have to face permanent guerrilla in the interior.
• Having only Corsica wouldn't make Genoa strong enough to resist France or Austria.

It's an alt-1848: Savoy invades Liguria, big cities like Genoa resist supplied by the fleet, Corsican rebels take advantage of the situation and break free from the Duchy, after a long siege a breach is open in the city's walls. The end.
 

gurgu

Banned
I'm not very sure about all this Corsica back to Genoa thing: why should anyone want it?
• Corsicans wanted independence.
• Genoa would have to face permanent guerrilla in the interior.
• Having only Corsica wouldn't make Genoa strong enough to resist France or Austria.

It's an alt-1848: Savoy invades Liguria, big cities like Genoa resist supplied by the fleet, Corsican rebels take advantage of the situation and break free from the Duchy, after a long siege a breach is open in the city's walls. The end.
the corsican until today still are desiring autonomy but lets say the war happens, do you really think genoa would not have any ally? it's one of the most important ports of the mediterranean sea a trade deal with any nation is enough to bee protected ( england? spain? )
but let's keep going with a war with a Genoa purely innocent that trusts it's historical rival to not attack her; Savoy wasn't able to conquer the city in centuries even with help of the french army (1626) when the "mura nuove" weren't yet built up so what makes you possibly think that they could be able to win this siege while keep occupying the whole region? if such a war would start genoa may realese corsica as indipendet but nothing more, savoy wasn't able to win the war alone.
 
Piedmont-Sardinia's only coast is going to be in Nice. Unless a western part of Genoa (Imperia?) is ceded to Piedmont-Sardinia as well, this would be troublesome for Turin.

If Piedmont-Sardinia isn't getting Genoa, what is it getting instead? Corsica seems like the most likely option.
 

gurgu

Banned
Piedmont-Sardinia's only coast is going to be in Nice. Unless a western part of Genoa (Imperia?) is ceded to Piedmont-Sardinia as well, this would be troublesome for Turin.

If Piedmont-Sardinia isn't getting Genoa, what is it getting instead? Corsica seems like the most likely option.

I can agree on this, genoa keeps it's freedom and PS takes corsica sounds pretty fair to me
 
the corsican until today still are desiring autonomy but lets say the war happens, do you really think genoa would not have any ally? it's one of the most important ports of the mediterranean sea a trade deal with any nation is enough to bee protected ( england? spain? )

As Evil Crusader pointed out England had no interest in Genoa. List an example of Spanish militar involvement in Italy during the XIX century. If Genoa gets an ally it is going to be Austria or France, which means war in Northern Italy: exactly what everyone tried to avoid with Vienna.

but let's keep going with a war with a Genoa purely innocent that trusts it's historical rival to not attack her; Savoy wasn't able to conquer the city in centuries even with help of the french army (1626) when the "mura nuove" weren't yet built up so what makes you possibly think that they could be able to win this siege while keep occupying the whole region? if such a war would start genoa may realese corsica as indipendet but nothing more, savoy wasn't able to win the war alone.

Are really wars fought before 1673 a good example of Genoa's ability to resist Savoy in the XIX century (Also mura nuove were finished in the XVII century.)?
Saying it never happened before, so it won't happen in 1848 it's not enough.
 
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