WI: General Motors produces the P-38 Lightning instead of the P-75 Eagle

One of the great sinkholes of the United States war effort IOTL during the Great Patriotic War was the effort by General Motors' Fisher Body Division to produce a new fighter. The plane, despite being fathered by the respected Don Berlin, was a failure in every sense of the word--a regular George W. Bush of fighter planes, with both cases showing heritage ain't everything. :D

Berlin, who led the design teams for Curtiss that produced the P-36 and P-40, was higly regarded as a designer and manager of aviation projects. His departure from Curtiss-Wright is felt by many to be one of the causes of its collapse as an airplane producer. Berlin conceived of the P-75 as a high performance long range fighter rapidly produced from already proven components of other aircraft. What resulted was an aeronautical chimera that was overweight, overbudget, underperforming, and behind schedule. The United States invested a considerable amount of resources based on GM's promise to produce a super plane. This promise was not kept.

Comrades, here is question: What if instead of wasting all the money and effort on developing the P-75 from scratch, the United States had convinced General Motors to produce under license another long-range super fighter, the P-38? Being in existence, the P-38 was much more of a known quantity. The P-38 had actual specificatons close to that projected for the P-75 (which the P-75 never claim close to achieving). The P-38 also had the advantage--at least for GM--of using two GM produced Allison engines, as did the P-75 (thought the engines for P-75 were coupled). Another advantage of having GM produce the P-38 was that second sourcing would allow Lockheed to introduce changes more easily. For example, Bodie in his definitive book about the P-38 notes that P-38K, with paddle bladed propellors and superior performance, was not introduced because procurement did not want to shutdown the sole production line for two weeks to allow for the change. Presumably, if GM does produce the P-38, Lockheed may have additional resources available for improving the P-38 (and its aerodymanically more sophisticated follow-on, the P-49), as well as newer projects such as P-80 and the Constellation.

That is not to say that adding GM as an additional production source for the P-38 would be a perfect fit. One problem was the P-38 was an extremely complicated and sophisticated plane. With twin turbo-charged, intercooled engines, the plane had extremely complicated engine mountings. Still, GM had shown itself as a competent producer of modern aircraft. The majority of Wildcats and Avengers were produced by General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division. Though not as complicated as the Lightning, these were still sophisticated aircraft. Presumably, this ability would allow GM's Fisher Body to produce the P-38 rather than wasting time and money on the P-75.

(Interestingly, GM also held a major interest in North American Aviation, producer of the P-51.)

So what if GM tries to produce the P-38 instead of failing at the P-75? Does GM producing the P-38 seem to be a reasonable possibility? What would it take for it to have happened? What be result?

For those who have doubts about the efficacy of the P-38, here is a link to a website that catalogues a discussion about the P-38 from the old usenet days: http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
 
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Wouldn't this be a DBWI? :confused:

No, a DBWI thread, to be strictly accurate, according to the wiki, involves posting from the perspective of the ATL asking about OTL events as the WI of the thread, so the OP of this thread, if done as a DBWI, would be asking something along the lines of DBWI: 'WI GM attempted to develop & produce the P-75 instead of license-building P-38s,' with on-topic posts about things such as making the P-75 out to be a missed opportunity to have a superplane, asking whether it could be put together because of some technical hurdle, probably mixed with some debate on the merits of the P-38.
 
Wouldn't this be a DBWI? :confused:
No, it would not be. General Motors did produce the P-75 Eagle, though very few of them at a great cost and a great wast of resources. I am asking what would have happened in this timeline if General Motors had attempted to produce P-38s rather than spending time and money to produce the monumentally useless P-75 as happened IOTL.

Edited to add thanks to DD591 for a very good explanation.

For more on the P-75:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-75_Eagle
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p75.html
http://www.alexstoll.com/AircraftOfTheMonth/3-00.html
 
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No, it would not be. General Motors did produce the P-75 Eagle, though very few of them at a great cost and a great wast of resources. I am asking what would have happened in this timeline if General Motors had attempted to produce P-38s rather than spending time and money to produce the monumentally useless P-75 as happened IOTL.

Edited to add thanks to DD591 for a very good explanation.

For more on the P-75:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-75_Eagle
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p75.html
http://www.alexstoll.com/AircraftOfTheMonth/3-00.html


this doesn't make sense, the p-38 entered production in 1941, and the p-75 didn't get into the prototype phase until late 1943. How could GM decide to build a plane designed and produced by Lockheed two years after said plane was already in production?
 
this doesn't make sense, the p-38 entered production in 1941, and the p-75 didn't get into the prototype phase until late 1943. How could GM decide to build a plane designed and produced by Lockheed two years after said plane was already in production?

Building it under license. It'd be the same plans Lockheed's plant was using, but on GM assembly lines so that there could be more P-38s produced. GM gets some portion of the money, some goes to Lockheed for license fees, and the USAF gets more P-38s that they would IOTL.
 
this doesn't make sense, the p-38 entered production in 1941, and the p-75 didn't get into the prototype phase until late 1943. How could GM decide to build a plane designed and produced by Lockheed two years after said plane was already in production?
DanRTG, it does make sense. Allow me to try to clarify if my explanation is not pellucid.

Rather, as in our time line, where we have General Motors waste money on trying and and failing to develop a useful P-75, instead we have a world where General Motors would produce the P-38 as a second source. In our time General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division, consisting of some of GM's eastern US auto factories, produced Grumman designed TBM Avengers F4M Wildcats. This sort of multiple sourcing was fairly common during the Great Patriotic War. Ford, at Willow Run made B-24 Liberators. I am postulating a world where GM is a second source for Lightnings.

There are number of reasons I think this alternative timeline is interesting. First is that P-75 program was a large waste of resources. This would apply resources wasted on P-75 on a very versatile and proven aircraft. Second, the P-38 was slow in receiving a second source. This did not occur until 1944 with the Consolidated plant in Tennessee. This could result in more P-38s being available. Third, due to the lack of second sourcing, opportunities such as the P-38K were not incorporated--the US procurement folks were reluctant to close sole production line even briefly. This means possibly better P-38s. Fourth, GM had considerable production and engineering expertise that might have revlieved Lockheed's engineering staff from quotidian tasks and allowed them to concentrate on more important tasks. This means possible an earlier P-80 and Lockheed Constellation. Fifth, economies of scales and GM's mass production skills might have also reduced the cost of the rather pricey P-38, again meaning more Lightnings.

Does that clarify matters?

Edited to add thanks to e of pi for a very good explanation.
 
DanRTG, it does make sense. Allow me to try to clarify if my explanation is not pellucid.

Rather, as in our time line, where we have General Motors waste money on trying and and failing to develop a useful P-75, instead we have a world where General Motors would produce the P-38 as a second source. In our time General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division, consisting of some of GM's eastern US auto factories, produced Grumman designed TBM Avengers F4M Wildcats. This sort of multiple sourcing was fairly common during the Great Patriotic War. Ford, at Willow Run made B-24 Liberators. I am postulating a world where GM is a second source for Lightnings.

There are number of reasons I think this alternative timeline is interesting. First is that P-75 program was a large waste of resources. This would apply resources wasted on P-75 on a very versatile and proven aircraft. Second, the P-38 was slow in receiving a second source. This did not occur until 1944 with the Consolidated plant in Tennessee. This could result in more P-38s being available. Third, due to the lack of second sourcing, opportunities such as the P-38K were not incorporated--the US procurement folks were reluctant to close sole production line even briefly. This means possibly better P-38s. Fourth, GM had considerable production and engineering expertise that might have revlieved Lockheed's engineering staff from quotidian tasks and allowed them to concentrate on more important tasks. This means possible an earlier P-80 and Lockheed Constellation. Fifth, economies of scales and GM's mass production skills might have also reduced the cost of the rather pricey P-38, again meaning more Lightnings.

Does that clarify matters?

Edited to add thanks to e of pi for a very good explanation.

Building it under license. It'd be the same plans Lockheed's plant was using, but on GM assembly lines so that there could be more P-38s produced. GM gets some portion of the money, some goes to Lockheed for license fees, and the USAF gets more P-38s that they would IOTL.


understood,, ok then
 
A little OT, but does anyone have any idea what effect no Mustang engine production lines from '42 onwards would have on the Lightning?

The P-51 and P-38 powerplants were both Allisons, albeit of much different designs.

Is that the easiest way to get a P-38K into service (or even just more of the later P-38s models of OTL which many consider greatly underestimated?)
 

Markus

Banned
The P-75 was a mess much, much worse than PhilKearny stated. At first she was meant to be a quick climbing interceptor, a year later they tried to turn her into a long range fighter.

Making Lightnings would have made a lot more sense as Lockheed´s production rate was rather low compared to Bell and C&W(140 vs 300/400 planes per month) and the P-38 combined a high rate of climb with a long range.
 
The P-38 was originally a low production quantity intercepter. It was never designed for mass production. It kept many of it's flaws throughout the war. The induction cooling was never designrd for up-rated engines. The cockpit was bitterly cold and drafty and the -E model with pressurization was not developed. The dive flap developed to prevent tail breakage was shamefully late in implementation. At the same time, Lockheed was forced to develop the P-49 and P-58, two waste-of-time aircraft, in order to allow the sale of P-322 Lightnings to Britain, a sale which did not go through anyway.

While the P-75 was eventually proven a waste of time, at it's inception, it was a response to a need for a long range fighter, a need which was serendipitously met by the Merlin-Mustang.

The USAAF ordered a plethora of intriguing aircraft, twin-booms, pusher canards, pusher tail-less, blended-wing, none of which entered production or aided the war effort. In addition, a number of radical engines were ordered, none of which were produced for service use.

The fact that all these esoteric machines were being developed at a time the US was still out-producing everybody else was amazing. The fact remains that production capacity could have still been improved although whether anyone would have redesigned the flaws out of the P-38 is conjectural. I'm sure a warmer pressurized cockpit would have been appreciated in the ETO. The impact of increased production capacity would be better served with less complicated aircraft.
 
You can't kill the P-75, it had the very kool co-axial contra-rotating propellers. Who cares if it didn't work, it look good on the ground!
 
It has always been my understanding that GM originally proposed the P-75 in order to get out of having to produce B-29 engine nacelles
 
I believe the design was proposed because a lot of designers and draughtsmen and such were not going to be utilized in auto production. The original P-75 was a mongrel hybrid consisting of Mustang wings, Corsair undercarriage and a Dauntless tail, and making use of the double Allison engine on which the air corps had invested and relied so heavily. Also, Donovan Berlin was considered a premier designer at the time, and he was through with Curtiss. It turned out to be a bastard program, but this was not the intention. Interestingly, Curtiss subsequently turned into a bit of a bastard company about the same time, as far as new designs were concerned, although their production rate for P-40's was unsurpassed. But design capacity and production capacity are two different things. P-40's were produced so prolifically until 1944, that they were subjected to a Senate investigation by some guy named Harry.
 
DanRTG, it does make sense. Allow me to try to clarify if my explanation is not pellucid.

Rather, as in our time line, where we have General Motors waste money on trying and and failing to develop a useful P-75, instead we have a world where General Motors would produce the P-38 as a second source. In our time General Motors' Eastern Aircraft Division, consisting of some of GM's eastern US auto factories, produced Grumman designed TBM Avengers F4M Wildcats. This sort of multiple sourcing was fairly common during the Great Patriotic War. Ford, at Willow Run made B-24 Liberators. I am postulating a world where GM is a second source for Lightnings.

There are number of reasons I think this alternative timeline is interesting. First is that P-75 program was a large waste of resources. This would apply resources wasted on P-75 on a very versatile and proven aircraft. Second, the P-38 was slow in receiving a second source. This did not occur until 1944 with the Consolidated plant in Tennessee. This could result in more P-38s being available. Third, due to the lack of second sourcing, opportunities such as the P-38K were not incorporated--the US procurement folks were reluctant to close sole production line even briefly. This means possibly better P-38s. Fourth, GM had considerable production and engineering expertise that might have revlieved Lockheed's engineering staff from quotidian tasks and allowed them to concentrate on more important tasks. This means possible an earlier P-80 and Lockheed Constellation. Fifth, economies of scales and GM's mass production skills might have also reduced the cost of the rather pricey P-38, again meaning more Lightnings.

Does that clarify matters?

Edited to add thanks to e of pi for a very good explanation.
GM-built Wildcats were designated FM-1/2 Wildcats, with the FM-1 effectively beinga GM-built F4F-4, and the FM-2 being a minor improvement on the XF4F-8. The FM Wildcats were GM's first fighter production program, like with Goodyear and the FG-1 Corsair.
 
I am not too familiar with the P-38 was it in very short supply. If the airforce didnt want to stop production for 2 weeks that would seem to answer my question.

Were they so desperate or were they worried that the 2 week stoppage would turn out to be a lot longer as often happens when production lines are changed. I was once involved in a production line change where 6 weeks effectively became 6 months by the time all the bugs were sorted.
 
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