WI: Garibaldi accepts Lincoln's offer to command the Union Army?

[Metalicon]

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1975/6/1975_6_34.shtml

Because Garibaldi and the U.S. could not agree on certain points in regards to this, Garibaldi never come to the U.S., however, what would be the implications of having General Garibaldi in the Union Army?

 

[maverick]

I wonder if they could turn the fight into something religious (fight the foreign papist legions!) as we have Irish Brigades and now an Italian General or as a fight to preserve American Values vs perfidious European values.

It's also interesting to note that Garibaldi is a hero for Independence, which is what the Confederacy is arguably fighting for in this war.

But in the end, I think that Garibaldi is defeated, given how massive and bloody the Civil War is compared to his other wars, and he might even die on the field.

 

[Whanztastic]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=15293

 

[maverick]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=15293

As portrayed in BHD, Delta operators Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart were the 1st (posthumous) MOH winners since Vietnam, for their heroism in singlehandedly defending Mike Durant's SUPER 6-4 crash in Mog on 3rd Oct 1993, before being overrun by overwhelming nos. of Somalis. Now, could anybody come up with scenarios for US servicemen before 1993 and after 1975 winning the MOH ? Maybe if candidates such as the anonymous Navy SEAL sniper who defended govt house in Grenada from superior nos. of Grenadian soldiers equipped with armour, or the Ranger sgt who patched up his wounded buddies under fire, during Op URGENT FURY, had been awarded ? Maybe also say in the event of an EAGLE CLAW which was actually carried out, with recipients from Delta and 10th SFG for heroism during the rescue attempt in Tehran, or in Beirut 1985 had the Reagan admin decided to use Delta and the SEALs to rescue American hostages ?

Is this some weird new form of Trolling? don't troll.

 

[Metalicon]

I wonder if they could turn the fight into something religious (fight the foreign papist legions!) as we have Irish Brigades and now an Italian General or as a fight to preserve American Values vs perfidious European values.

It's also interesting to note that Garibaldi is a hero for Independence, which is what the Confederacy is arguably fighting for in this war.

But in the end, I think that Garibaldi is defeated, given how massive and bloody the Civil War is compared to his other wars, and he might even die on the field.

Garibaldi would've made it into an issue of freeing the slaves more so than anything else as that was his #1 priority in his correspondence with the U.S. government. Therefore, it would be unlikely for him to support the Confederacy.

Regarding his luck on the battlefield, it seems he would be more successful than Ulysses Grant since it was considered that Grant was not the best General and that Garibaldi had good success with Uruguay and Southern Italy.

My question in regards to this is if Garibaldi chooses to accept, would he become a prominent figure in American Politics?

 

[wilcoxchar]

We'd probably get an earlier telephone thanks to Garibaldi's availability in the Union and his contact with Antonio Meucci

 

[Eurofed]

It's also interesting to note that Garibaldi is a hero for Independence, which is what the Confederacy is arguably fighting for in this war.

Garibaldi was a radical democratic, and thoroughly opposed to slavery, like the other Europeans of his ilk. The only quibble it had with the Union cause was that it did not committ to Emancipation fast or openly enough. Had the Emancipation Proclaim been issued somewhat earlier, or his Aspromonet expedition somehow delayed, he would have eagerly fought as a Union general. The idea that he could fight for the slaveocracy was ASB. It was just as likely as Gandhi becoming pro-Nazi.

Wiki gives an accurate enough summary coverage of the issue:

At the outbreak of the ACW, Garibaldi volunteered his services to President Abraham Lincoln. Garibaldi was offered a Major General's commission in the U. S. Army through the letter from Secretary of State William H. Seward to H. S. Sanford, the U. S. Minister at Brussels, July 17, 1861. On September 18, 1861, Sanford sent the following reply to Seward:

He [Garibaldi] said that the only way in which he could render service, as he ardently desired to do, to the cause of the United States, was as Commander-in-chief of its forces, that he would only go as such, and with the additional contingent power - to be governed by events - of declaring the abolition of slavery; that he would be of little use without the first, and without the second it would appear like a civil war in which the world at large could have little interest or sympathy.
​

According to Italian historian Petacco, "Garibaldi was ready to accept Lincoln's 1862 offer but on one condition: that the war's objective be declared as the abolition of slavery. But at that stage Lincoln was unwilling to make such a statement lest he worsen an agricultural crisis." On August 6, 1863, after the Emancipation Proclamation had been issued, Garibaldi wrote to Lincoln: Posterity will call you the great emancipator, a more enviable title than any crown could be, and greater than any merely mundane treasure.

It seems that Giuseppe was a good prophet, by the way.

Garibaldi would've made it into an issue of freeing the slaves more so than anything else as that was his #1 priority in his correspondence with the U.S. government. Therefore, it would be unlikely for him to support the Confederacy.

Correct.

Regarding his luck on the battlefield, it seems he would be more successful than Ulysses Grant since it was considered that Grant was not the best General and that Garibaldi had good success with Uruguay and Southern Italy.

I balk at this description of Grant. Not the "best general", in comparison to whom ?? But I agree that he would likely have been among the best Union generals.

My question in regards to this is if Garibaldi chooses to accept, would he become a prominent figure in American Politics?

Quite unlikely, since he would not give up his primary committment to the unfinished Italian unification, and he would keep regarding himself as Italian. In all likelihood, he would become the latter-day Italian equivalent of Lafayette.

 

[usertron2020]

Regarding his luck on the battlefield, it seems he would be more successful than Ulysses Grant since it was considered that Grant was not the best General and that Garibaldi had good success with Uruguay and Southern Italy.

Careful. Limiting your desciption of Grant to "Grant was not the best General" could lead some to conclude you were not of the opinion that Grant was the Forrest Gump of the ACW. Prepare for serious flaming.

 

[usertron2020]

Incoming!!!

I balk at this description of Grant. Not the "best general", in comparison to whom ?? But I agree that he would likely have been among the best Union generals.

Metalicon

Eurofed


YIKES!! This is what I get for posting before reading every post!

Eurofed, after reading your post, I suggest you ask Metalicon if he will let you stay at his "Undisclosed Location." Otherwise, you won't have to worry about being flamed. Just nuked...

 

[Eurofed]

Eurofed, after reading your post, I suggest you ask Metalicon if he will let you stay at his "Undisclosed Location." Otherwise, you won't have to worry about being flamed. Just nuked...

Dude, after experiencing WWII flamewars while playing Devil's Advocate for the Axis no less, I laugh at ACW flamewars.

 

[Whanztastic]

Is this some weird new form of Trolling? don't troll.

oh oops! copied wrong link sorry

was supposed to be a link to Garibaldi accepts command of the Union Army

basically, conclusion of this thread which stopped no more than a month ago was that when Garibaldi was offered a command he demanded command of the whole army because Lincoln could never give him it and Garibaldi really didn't want it

 

[mailinutile2]

Garibaldi was an italian.
For most of the other officers in the army (classical 1800 WASP mentality), Italian = lousy, lazy, good-for-nothing dago, maybe even goddamned papist (even if he was actually atheist).
Thus they
1) would not accept him as a superior, nor as an equal
2) would do their utmost to have him replaced.

Also consider that:
1) he would not be willing to go (Italian unification not completed)
2) he was more-or less in jail in Caprera (italian king was not happy of having him loose, since he was republican and revolutionary)

 

[Eurofed]

Garibaldi was an italian.
For most of the other officers in the army (classical 1800 WASP mentality), Italian = lousy, lazy, good-for-nothing dago, maybe even goddamned papist (even if he was actually atheist).
Thus they
1) would not accept him as a superior, nor as an equal
2) would do their utmost to have him replaced.

Really not. Italian Risorgimento was a quite popular cause in 1860s America (one state militia even adopted Garibaldi's red shirts as uniform) and Garibaldi a well-known and admired European heroic figure. The racism issues you mention would be largely non-existent except among the most radical nativist bigots, which would be a fringe in the Union officer corps. Italian immigration was still relatively limited in the 1860s, so anti-immigrant prejudice was not so focused against Italians yet (the Irish carried the brunt of it, back then). Again, most Union officers and soldiers would quickly come to think of him as a latter-day Italian Lafayette if he is any successful. By the way, he was quite skilled at managing his PR, and his charismatic personality would in all likelihood make him quickly a press darling.

Also consider that:
1) he would not be willing to go (Italian unification not completed)

A relevant issue. But the historical evidence appears to indicate that the man himself thought the Italian unification process was in enough of hiatus in 1861-62 that he could afford some time spent fighting for the Union.

2) he was more-or less in jail in Caprera (italian king was not happy of having him loose, since he was republican and revolutionary)

Irrelevant for the issue at hand. From the moderates' viewpoint, Garibaldi is much better busy fighting far away in America (and optimally reaping indirect glory for Italy in a cause that brought no risk for the young state) than being a loose cannon in Italy (and his confinement in Caprera was far from secure, anyway).

 

[mailinutile2]

The racism issues you mention would be largely non-existent except among the most radical nativist bigots

Custer does not strike me as an open-mided example. And he was not the only one in the army proud of slaughtering "savages".

By the way, he was quite skilled at managing his PR, and his charismatic personality would in all likelihood make him quickly a press darling.

you have a point here

But the historical evidence appears to indicate that the man himself thought the Italian unification process was in enough of hiatus in 1861-62 that he could afford some time spent fighting for the Union.

Not, really. in 1866 he was again fighting in Tirol.
And remember that in 1861 Italian troops had to shoot him in a leg to prevent him going from naples to rome.

But the historical evidence appears to indicate that the man himself thought the Italian unification process was in enough of hiatus in 1861-62 that he could afford some time spent fighting for the Union.

Irrelevant for the issue at hand. From the moderates' viewpoint, Garibaldi is much better busy fighting far away in America ... (and his confinement in Caprera was far from secure, anyway).

From the viewpoint of the men holding the keys of his jail (the italian king) it was very relevant, so relevant that the ordered his confinement and him to be watched by guards.
Also notice the Caprera is not so unsecure, since it is an tiny island with no major port. The main land near it is also another island -sardinia- (so even if he escape from the first, he could be found on the second).

 

[mrmandias]

Custer does not strike me as an open-mided example.

So what? Re-read Eurofed's post. His point was not that Custer was open-minded. His point was that the prejudices of the day were different than the prejudices of later years. There is no stereotyped American who hates papists, jews, limeys, italians, negros, injuns, gays, libtards, cohabs and commies in 1661, 1771, 1861, and today.

The European liberals like Garibaldi and the Hungarian revolutionaries were generally quite admired in the North.

 

[mailinutile2]

So what? Re-read Eurofed's post. His point was not that Custer was open-minded. His point was that the prejudices of the day were different than the prejudices of later years. There is no stereotyped American who hates papists, jews, limeys, italians, negros, injuns, gays, libtards, cohabs and commies in 1661, 1771, 1861, and today.

The European liberals like Garibaldi and the Hungarian revolutionaries were generally quite admired in the North.

You mean that it was just Pearl's "the Dante Club" to give them a bad name?

 

[Eurofed]

Custer does not strike me as an open-mided example. And he was not the only one in the army proud of slaughtering "savages".

As mrmandias said, that is beside the point. Anti-Italian prejudice was much lower in 1861 than by the turn of the century, and prejudice towards other races was always much more widespread and fierce than towards fellow Europeans.

Not, really. in 1866 he was again fighting in Tirol.

After the ACW had ended. Irrelevant for our scenario. He would have had time to come back from America and engage in the Third War of Independence.

And remember that in 1861 Italian troops had to shoot him in a leg to prevent him going from naples to rome.

Actually, 1862, after he had dropped the talks with the Union government. Again, there is the documentary evidence that he seriously considered becoming a Union general in 1861-62 (the main obstacle is that he wanted a clear committment from Lincoln to emancipation, so the PoD most likely involves anticipating the Emancipation Proclaim). If he goes this way, he's going to plan delaying his attempt on Rome till his return.

From the viewpoint of the men holding the keys of his jail (the italian king) it was very relevant, so relevant that the ordered his confinement and him to be watched by guards.

From the viewpoint of the King, Garibaldi far away in America instead of rasing Hell at home and happily engaged in a fight that at worst loses nothing to Italy, at best reaps it much useful PR is a win-win situation.

 

[Eurofed]

You mean that it was just Pearl's "the Dante Club" to give them a bad name?

No, it was millions of dirt-poor Italian immigrants to America that arrived in 1880-1910, and were still relatively limited and unnoticed in 1861 (back then, the brunt of European immigration to America was Irish and Germans, and it was the irish that got the most of racist prejudice).

 

[mailinutile2]

No, it was millions of dirt-poor Italian immigrants to America that arrived in 1880-1910, and were still relatively limited and unnoticed in 1861 (back then, the brunt of European immigration to America was Irish and Germans, and it was the irish that got the most of racist prejudice).

I was referring to the other "them"

 

[Metalicon]

Metalicon

Eurofed


YIKES!! This is what I get for posting before reading every post!

Eurofed, after reading your post, I suggest you ask Metalicon if he will let you stay at his "Undisclosed Location." Otherwise, you won't have to worry about being flamed. Just nuked...

I never said that Grant was a bad General, however, he did have critics in regards to his style of warfare against the Confederacy.

Undisclosed location has nice weather although its gets a bit dull after awhile.